If Mort Divine ruled the world
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Einherjar86
Active Member
No, he doesn't.
We won't ever change the vast majority of minds that hold racist beliefs or prejudices. Approaching the problem that way is pointless because overwhelmingly the kinds of minds that hold racist beliefs are also the kinds of irrational (but rationalizing) minds that rarely ever understand how to think critically.
There are historical and structural reasons behind why people today say racist things/commit racist acts. The only thing we can do is identify those reasons and teach them accordingly, or in the most broad and objective framework possible, so that later generations don't fall prey to the same delusions.
Targeting individual beliefs and minds is absolutely the most inane and worthless way to go about solving the problem, because it simply won't work.
We won't ever change the vast majority of minds that hold racist beliefs or prejudices. Approaching the problem that way is pointless because overwhelmingly the kinds of minds that hold racist beliefs are also the kinds of irrational (but rationalizing) minds that rarely ever understand how to think critically.
There are historical and structural reasons behind why people today say racist things/commit racist acts. The only thing we can do is identify those reasons and teach them accordingly, or in the most broad and objective framework possible, so that later generations don't fall prey to the same delusions.
Targeting individual beliefs and minds is absolutely the most inane and worthless way to go about solving the problem, because it simply won't work.
Dak
mentat
So it can be engineered that piles of racist people can somehow have their racism stillborn within social interactions? That's a pipedream. The shit will just fester under the surface until it explodes at the first chance. More symptom treating.
Further, the "system" approach has a mountain of unintended consequence issues outside of that - plus the plainly obvious problems. Complaints about gentrification and broken windows policing are a start.
No, Morts obviously right. Not having things be a shithole is clearly an expression of white privilege. Lets make everything equally shitty, like in Appalachia. Oh wait, that's white folk. OMG EVERYTHING IS WHITE PRIVILEGE. Pretty much the gist of a recent National Review piece.
Further, the "system" approach has a mountain of unintended consequence issues outside of that - plus the plainly obvious problems. Complaints about gentrification and broken windows policing are a start.
No, Morts obviously right. Not having things be a shithole is clearly an expression of white privilege. Lets make everything equally shitty, like in Appalachia. Oh wait, that's white folk. OMG EVERYTHING IS WHITE PRIVILEGE. Pretty much the gist of a recent National Review piece.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
Systemic racism is clearly the salient issue, Mort is right in that context, I'm just a cranky asshole when it comes to language and can't stand the fact that people are being taught that racial prejudice isn't real racism, but I think it has other implications like non-white racist acts being ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative of privilege run amok.
Dak
mentat
Sure, things like redlining offer an example of systemic issues. Mere "disparate impact" doesn't, but that's how it's getting framed and assessed.
rms
Active Member
I have to say this is an incredibly optimistic perspective based off our history. I don't think things are like this no more, but I definitely wouldn't say most of the problems are "unintended consequences."
There was the guy who owned the Clippers and literally outlawed minorities from living in his apartment complexes. There are of course instances where things occur that are not intended, but I wouldn't put it blankly like you did.
I think there's a middle ground here but you're a tad excited
I don't think redefining what racism is destroys the criminality of "hate crimes"
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
That woman was completely out of her depth. I think he needs to get smarter people that can actually speak on the "issues"
Einherjar86
Active Member
I never said we would change the minds of racist people - in fact, I suggested the opposite: that we will never change the majority of racist minds.
There are historical and structural reasons behind racist behavior at the individual level. First, acknowledge that (which I think you already do - if you don't, then there's no point in having this conversation and my conclusion is that you're a moron).
Research (and simply history) has demonstrated that you cannot change the majority of people's minds through discourse and "reasoned argument." People change their behavior because of material policies at the institutional level. Does this open a dangerous avenue to tyrannical policies? Yes, it absolutely does; but that is no moral or metaphysical reason to abandon such policies entirely. It is a reason, however, to maintain open and audible discussions on what passes for legislature (that's what "politics" does).
I think there's a middle ground here but you're a tad excited
He is excited, and his routine argumentative tactic is to adopt the position he's arguing against, emphasize its most corrosive or inflammatory aspects, and then blow those aspects out of proportion. It's Dak at his more annoying, in my opinion.
Dak
mentat
My point was that those feelings of racism won't go away just because it isn't polite to talk about it (hell, because you get crucified even for talking about it).
I bring up the flammable and "corrosive" aspects because thats how politics works. If the corrosive side wants to blame all white males and millions of inanimate objects for the deranged actions of one human, I think I'm still way behind in "blowing things out of proportion". And you guys haven't seen me actually excited
. My capslock is always used for sarcasm.
I bring up the flammable and "corrosive" aspects because thats how politics works. If the corrosive side wants to blame all white males and millions of inanimate objects for the deranged actions of one human, I think I'm still way behind in "blowing things out of proportion". And you guys haven't seen me actually excited
. My capslock is always used for sarcasm.
Einherjar86
Active Member
I never insinuated that they would; but that should be a clue that trying to change people's minds at the level of thought won't work. Sometimes it takes more extreme policy measures.
I wouldn't suggest that we can change people's minds, only that we can begin to change behavior which will, in turn, lead to different beliefs over the long term.
I wouldn't suggest that we can change people's minds, only that we can begin to change behavior which will, in turn, lead to different beliefs over the long term.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
That's exactly what I thought, she's so easily stumped, but then again and I hate to say it but feminists have never proven to be good debaters.
Sure if you think so, I'm evidently speaking more about the morality of the subject, though as more and more of the social sciences leak into the legal system, don't be surprised if hate crimes are only defined by prejudice + power, as in a crime only whites can commit against a minority.
Jimmy... Dead.
contemplative curmudgeon
I'd like to see Mort debate Gavin. And I'd especially like to see Ein debate him.
Matter of fact, Mort?, Ein? did either of you happen to watch this? http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2qq68v
If so, what are your thoughts? are his ideas persuasive at all or is he misinformed and debating with a person as uncritical as himself?
Matter of fact, Mort?, Ein? did either of you happen to watch this? http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2qq68v
If so, what are your thoughts? are his ideas persuasive at all or is he misinformed and debating with a person as uncritical as himself?
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
How do we change behaviour and what behaviour would we specifically be changing?
rms
Active Member
I don't think anyone rational should debate Gavin. Dude is a racist and deeply entrenched in a conservative, religious upbringing.
I like what this guy says on the circuit in England.
It's definitely possible, then at that point I would object. That has happened with domestic violence in the States.
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CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
He brings up decent points in the video, ones that simply can't be dismissed by making the personal, political.
If only he'd had a voracious debater opposing him these points could've evolved into very interesting discussions but instead he invited on some buzzword spewing flake, prone to being at a loss for words.
It's pretty hard to object after the fact.
rms
Active Member
He brings up points that many others do, but he's prejudiced. Doesn't make me want to 'refer' him to others on the topic versus Milo in the youtube clip.
Well, obviously. But we're not even at that point in our country yet, at least from what i've read/seen.
Well, obviously. But we're not even at that point in our country yet, at least from what i've read/seen.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
Fyi Milo Yiannopoulos is also deeply entrenched in a conservative, religious upbringing, is still actively conservative and religious and I'm guessing you'd probably consider his views on race as racist too if you researched them.
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