If Mort Divine ruled the world

[rms]

she is brazilian, but she did get her doctorate and sounded like she researched at a ivy league institution (not going to re-read the article)

 

[Einherjar86]

rms posted an article about US STEM workers, which showed that women in STEM fields were more likely to curtail involvement or drop from the workforce entirely than men, after having a first child (it also showed approximately the same percentage of both men and women leaving the STEM field). You followed up with an article on a Brazilian mathematician who thinks men are intimidating and wants to create safe spaces for women in mathematics.

You chose to focus on one tiny quote from that whole piece. rms posted an article about the impact of children and family demands, specifically pertaining to mathematicians (at least in part), and I offered an article with a female mathematician from Brazil who--wouldn't you know it!--talks about the demands of motherhood:

Being a mother and doing mathematics are two very intense modes of being. How do you balance the two?
I don’t think there is an easy recipe. I became a mother when I was 39, so my career was already established. I can’t imagine how hard it would be for a young mathematician — for a postdoc, it must be very hard. My son, who is almost 3, does not like me to work. If I need to work at home, I try to get him very tired, so he has a very long nap, and then I get maybe two and a half hours of work. But it’s hard, and it really does impact the research. I don’t work on mathematics as much as I used to. But that’s OK. It’s a different period of life.

Becoming a mother made me realize how deep the gender gap goes, how having children affects men and women differently. I’ve seen male colleagues who are back at the institute working, going to seminars, the same week that their children were born. I couldn’t think of doing this.

The first few months of motherhood were very intense for me, and not necessarily in a good way. So I not only didn’t have time, I didn’t have the energy to put myself in the necessary creative mindset. At times I missed math during this period. And I was happy at one point to have to make changes to a paper that had been refereed — it was a good escape. But it was difficult to work, and still, looking back, I probably did more work than I should have.

"Barely relevant"--give me a break, Dak.

This sentiment is consistent with feminist propaganda and tactics, which is that men are a problem and must be attacked in every clime and place. Males only spaces are particularly problematic (this is the rationale for the current suit at Yale). But conversely, women need "safe spaces" to enhance their energies, or whatever pseudo-psychobabble or new agey bullshit that needs promoting, depending on the flavor of the feminist.

She was neither being hostile toward male-only spaces, nor was she saying they shouldn't exist. You're choosing to interpret her words that way for reasons I can only describe as "snowflake-ish."

Male only spaces have been under attack for at least the past five decades, and men have been doing more poorly than women in nearly every economic and educational metric for the past decade plus (in the US), and the gap continues to widen. So some pardon us as we take issue with some solipsistic lamentations from Brazil.

 

[Dak]

You chose to focus on one tiny quote from that whole piece. rms posted an article about the impact of children and family demands, specifically pertaining to mathematicians (at least in part), and I offered an article with a female mathematician from Brazil who--wouldn't you know it!--talks about the demands of motherhood:

"Barely relevant"--give me a break, Dak.

As there are no mentions of a partner, more specifically the difficulties of being a single parent, regardless of sex or career field. I don't know what the Brazilian data suggests, but in the US persons with post secondary and graduate degrees are much less likely to be single parents, and this seems to be partially driven by white/asian representation in, as whites and asians are more likely to have married couple households. Again, based on the data from rms' article, men and women drop out of STEM fields into other fields at approximately the same rate, so burnout due to factors in the fields themselves don't seem sex specific. The difference in dropping to part-time status, or dropping out of the workforce suggests family structure and individual factors, rather than STEM structure issues - which is the opposite of the narrative Dr. Aruajo and others want to advance.

She was neither being hostile toward male-only spaces, nor was she saying they shouldn't exist. You're choosing to interpret her words that way for reasons I can only describe as "snowflake-ish."

Bailey vs Motte.

 

[Einherjar86]

As there are no mentions of a partner, more specifically the difficulties of being a single parent, regardless of sex or career field. I don't know what the Brazilian data suggests, but in the US persons with post secondary and graduate degrees are much less likely to be single parents, and this seems to be partially driven by white/asian representation in, as whites and asians are more likely to have married couple households. Again, based on the data from rms' article, men and women drop out of STEM fields into other fields at approximately the same rate, so burnout due to factors in the fields themselves don't seem sex specific. The difference in dropping to part-time status, or dropping out of the workforce suggests family structure and individual factors, rather than STEM structure issues - which is the opposite of the narrative Dr. Aruajo and others want to advance.

Virginia Valian, a psychologist at the City University of New York, says: “The results showing that fathers also leave STEM reinforces the hypothesis that the problem is a structural one, in which dedicated professionals are not expected to have a personal life, and, indeed, are punished for so doing.”

 

[Dak]

Key phrase "dedicated professionals." Dedicated professionals exist both across academia and outside of academia. This is a problem of dedication (individual factor) and difficult professions, of which STEM fields comprise a few, but not the only. Difficult professions exist because there are difficult problems, which do not take weekends or nights off. Incidentally, raising a human is a difficult problem (although not necessarily in the ways popularly considered). It's a matter of what importance you attach to different problems and what resources are available to address these problems. Some women and men, in light of problem importance and resources, sometimes make decisions that take them out of STEM and other difficult fields. Feminist complaints about this just highlights another way it shows itself to be an antihuman "philosophy."

 

[Einherjar86]

First, let's revisit your accusation. You said that the article I posted was mostly irrelevant because it was presenting "the opposite narrative" than that being presented in the article rms linked--i.e. my article was promoting structural issues in STEM, while the others were presenting something like what you're calling "individual factors."

I pointed to where the link rms posted specifies that the results support the hypothesis that structural issues in STEM are to blame (at least partially). The study also specified "dedicated professionals." Academics are dedicated professionals. The article I linked is talking about academics.

Maybe you can see why I'm confused about your accusation.

 

[Dak]

First, let's revisit your accusation. You said that the article I posted was mostly irrelevant because it was presenting "the opposite narrative" than that being presented in the article rms linked--i.e. my article was promoting structural issues in STEM, while the others were presenting something like what you're calling "individual factors."

I pointed to where the link rms posted specifies that the results support the hypothesis that structural issues in STEM are to blame (at least partially). The study also specified "dedicated professionals." Academics are dedicated professionals. The article I linked is talking about academics.

Maybe you can see why I'm confused about your accusation.

The contention is that these "structural issues" identified in the article you linked were, as I interpret it, because STEM fields (in Brazil even, not the US) have specific problem presented by their "maleness" and by lack of space for "personal life". The first claim is simply feelz based, and the latter is a nearly intractable problem in multiple career fields, not just STEM fields, so why single them out (and then implicitly or explicitly blame males)? Furthermore, again, it's Brazil and not the US.

 

[Einherjar86]

The contention is that these "structural issues" identified in the article you linked were, as I interpret it, because STEM fields (in Brazil even, not the US) have specific problem presented by their "maleness" and by lack of space for "personal life". The first claim is simply feelz based, and the latter is a nearly intractable problem in multiple career fields, not just STEM fields, so why single them out (and then implicitly or explicitly blame males)? Furthermore, again, it's Brazil and not the US.

The structural issues are the same as the ones in rms's link: i.e. that STEM fields reward familial sacrifice and punish those who have personal lives (hence the discussion of parenthood). That the demographics happen to skew male isn't the structural issue; it's the effect of a structural issue.

The Brazilian mathematician isn't saying that maleness is a structural problem; she's simply saying that mathematics is male-dominated and it's nice for there to be communities of women in the field. You imposed your reading as soon as you claimed that reversing the situation would lead to "riots in the streets."

 

[Dak]

The structural issues are the same as the ones in rms's link: i.e. that STEM fields reward familial sacrifice and punish those who have personal lives (hence the discussion of parenthood). That the demographics happen to skew male isn't the structural issue; it's the effect of a structural issue.

Yes, difficult problems require extreme dedication to reach solutions faster. This isn't a "STEM" issue anymoreso than it is an issue for other academia, politics, law, tech, etc. It's not a "punishment". Using the term "punishment" indicates idealogical imposition. The demographics skew male because of general male/female tendencies and the biological differences and relative/related efficiencies between males and females in childcare provision.

The Brazilian mathematician isn't saying that maleness is a structural problem; she's simply saying that mathematics is male-dominated and it's nice for there to be communities of women in the field. You imposed your reading as soon as you claimed that reversing the situation would lead to "riots in the streets."

The riots in the streets comment was 3/4 tongue in cheek, and a comment on the broader "conversation", not a comment on the article itself. She is saying that the maleness of mathematics is a structural problem of STEM though.

 

[Einherjar86]

Yes, difficult problems require extreme dedication to reach solutions faster. This isn't a "STEM" issue anymoreso than it is an issue for other academia, politics, law, tech, etc. It's not a "punishment". Using the term "punishment" indicates idealogical imposition. The demographics skew male because of general male/female tendencies and the biological differences and relative/related efficiencies between males and females in childcare provision.

There's no proof it's due to biological differences. You're making an inference based on suggestibility.

I admit I used "reward" and "punish" in a rhetorical fashion.

The riots in the streets comment was 3/4 tongue in cheek, and a comment on the broader "conversation", not a comment on the article itself. She is saying that the maleness of mathematics is a structural problem of STEM though.

No, she isn't. Point out exactly where she says that the male-dominated demographics of STEM is the structural problem. She's suggesting that it's an effect of a structural problem.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Can't find a better thread for it: picked my mom up from the airport, and the first thing she told me is that her brother had genetic testing done and confirmed he was actually approximately 1/16th Jewish, which means I'm 1/32nd Jewish, and far more Jewish than Elizabeth Warren is Native American. So fucking happy right now that I can re-embrace the Jewish identity I had abandoned in my adolescence. Can feel my verbal IQ rising by the minute.

 

[CiG]

Can't find a better thread for it: picked my mom up from the airport, and the first thing she told me is that her brother had genetic testing done and confirmed he was actually approximately 1/16th Jewish, which means I'm 1/32nd Jewish, and far more Jewish than Elizabeth Warren is Native American. So fucking happy right now that I can re-embrace the Jewish identity I had abandoned in my adolescence. Can feel my verbal IQ rising by the minute.

 

[The Ozzman]

Can't find a better thread for it: picked my mom up from the airport, and the first thing she told me is that her brother had genetic testing done and confirmed he was actually approximately 1/16th Jewish, which means I'm 1/32nd Jewish, and far more Jewish than Elizabeth Warren is Native American. So fucking happy right now that I can re-embrace the Jewish identity I had abandoned in my adolescence. Can feel my verbal IQ rising by the minute.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

View attachment 18990

Thank you my fellow person of color.

 

[The Ozzman]

Thank you my fellow person of color.

I thought Jews were white?

Wait until TB finds out. I can't wait for the memes.

 

[CiG]

Thank you my fellow person of color.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

He's been calling me a Jew ever since he saw my nose (which ironically came from my dad, whose own brother had DNA testing done and found 0% Jewish background despite their mother imagining it out of some kind of Zionist hope).

 

[CiG]

Aryan ubermensch don't require drugs, just willpower.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Hitler was hardly the spitting image of an Aryan ubermensch. Not to mention that he was a literal meth addict.

 

[CiG]

Hitler was hardly the spitting image of an Aryan ubermensch.

A frumpy brunette midget? Naww can't be.