If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Dak]

Just activists/-ism of a particular historical moment, I'm assuming...? Or would you say that the marches in Selma, suffragist picketing, and the Boston Tea Party were also ignorance in action...?

Maybe to a lesser degree than today in terms of the complaints, but yes.

 

[Einherjar86]

Maybe to a lesser degree than today in terms of the complaints, but yes.

Well hate to break it to you, but ignorance in action leads to change. Not always for the better--but then, we can also have ignorance in inaction. That's probably worse. It sounds like you want to make an argument against activism in all its manifestations, but that's counterproductive and unrealistic.

Not everyone can have full access to the theoretical workings and information that experts have. This is why I follow activists who are experts (people like Katharine Hayhoe, Bill McKibben, Naomi Oreskes, etc.); I trust them to make a sound case for activism.

 

[Dak]

I should be clear that I'm not against taking action. But the style of taking action by "activists" is childish on one end to criminal on the other (the older I get the more revolted by the whole Boston Tea Party chain of events I get).

Following the "pros" is pretty basic activism. Those people with ulterior motives. Activist get used like pawns to tear shit up, making things worse for many while not actually improving their own material position to any measurable degree. Big win for the "organizers" though.

 

[Einherjar86]

Does this mean we agree that the Founding Fathers were basically whiny children...?

I'll just point out that the large majority of activist movements currently taking place in this country are nonviolent and non-destructive. A plethora of YouTube videos doesn't change that.

 

[CiG]

Exclusive: $1 billion-plus riot damage is most expensive in insurance history.

The protests that took place in 140 U.S. cities this spring were mostly peaceful, but the arson, vandalism and looting that did occur will result in at least $1 billion to $2 billion of paid insurance claims — eclipsing the record set in Los Angeles in 1992 after the acquittal of the police officers who brutalized Rodney King.

That doesn't even include the damages that aren't getting payouts. It's a good thing the majority are "nonviolent and non-destructive" when you consider the severity of violence and destruction the small portion is already responsible for.

 

[Dak]

Does this mean we agree that the Founding Fathers were basically whiny children...?

Not whiny children, but definitely smart people with a certain amount of power that were interested in expanding that power. The British government had a little culpability with poor government but I'm increasingly of the opinion with all of the benefit of hindsight that the American Revolution was probably a net-negative. That said, who knows what other stupid things could have happened in history without it. The unfortunate issue with going further and further back with historical counterfactual analysis.

I'll just point out that the large majority of activist movements currently taking place in this country are nonviolent and non-destructive. A plethora of YouTube videos doesn't change that.

As CIG noted, we probably couldn't recover if they were/the military probably would be called up anyway if they were. I appreciate the moving forward with declaring certain cities as anarchic zones, as they rightly should be when the city stewards won't protect the citizens/businesses.

 

[Einherjar86]

It's a good thing the majority are "nonviolent and non-destructive" when you consider the severity of violence and destruction the small portion is already responsible for.

As CIG noted, we probably couldn't recover if they were/the military probably would be called up anyway if they were.

I mean, yeah. It'd be a shitshow. But it's not that--not even close.

 

[CiG]

The main reason majority of the protests have been peaceful is because there have been protests in every state, many of which are 100 people or less, and in small towns and cornball states like Alaska which had protests in 12 different parts with 0 incidents. In Hawaii there were like 10 protests held, none of them breaking 500 people, and none of those protests were violent. Examples like these count towards the overall peacefulness of the protests.

What do the numbers look like when you limit it to protests with sizeable crowds or in large towns and cities? You can claim "peaceful majority" all day long, but the public perception of the protests has been pretty badly damaged.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/09/22/1619-s22.html

Great exposé. The media gaslighted everyone in unison after Tara Reade that it was never "believe all women" and apparently they're at it again now that based Trump is attacking critical race theory head-on.

 

[Einherjar86]

The main reason majority of the protests have been peaceful is because there have been protests in every state, many of which are 100 people or less, and in small towns and cornball states like Alaska which had protests in 12 different parts with 0 incidents. In Hawaii there were like 10 protests held, none of them breaking 500 people, and none of those protests were violent. Examples like these count towards the overall peacefulness of the protests.

What do the numbers look like when you limit it to protests with sizeable crowds or in large towns and cities? You can claim "peaceful majority" all day long, but the public perception of the protests has been pretty badly damaged.

You're implying that episodes of violence = violent protest, a kind of "one drop" rule for protests. I take issue with that. The vast majority of most of the large protests are also peaceful. The breakouts of violence are vaguely related incidents that generally occur away from the center of organized events. They've been manipulated and amplified by media of all ideological platforms, and have been largely misconstrued as features of the movements at large--when if we're being honest, they're bugs. Large gatherings attract rabble-rousers and ne'er-do-wells (downright Dickensian, I declare).

 

[CiG]

Roughly 7% of the protests have been violent according to research, and of the roughly 375 million interactions civilians have with police every year, about 1000 result in death at the hands of the police. Just saying, if we're calling out the "one drop" rule and all.

 

[Dak]

Same issue with "gun violence" being a bugaboo, when a legally owned gun is so much less likely to be used in a crime than a "mostly peaceful protest" is to burn down buildings.

 

[rms]

Barometer for evidence is so low for the Taylor case , one dude hears police once and justifies the whole thing. Except property damage fucking joke.

 

[Einherjar86]

Roughly 7% of the protests have been violent according to research, and of the roughly 375 million interactions civilians have with police every year, about 1000 result in death at the hands of the police. Just saying, if we're calling out the "one drop" rule and all.

This probably deserves a longer response given that the protests are largely about police violence, but this is what I'll say. The issues at the heart of BLM police violence don't only have to do with how many people police kill, but how the police treat people of color. That's a much larger number and much more difficult to map.

The media and the movement sensationalize a few cases for the purpose of galvanizing a movement; and this is probably part of what Dak objects to about activism (a lot of activists extrapolate those few cases incorrectly). And it's true that dead bodies make more waves than a young black kid sent to prison for however-many years for possession of marijuana. But that doesn't mean the movement as a whole is misguided when its concerns pertain not only to murders, but arrests, profiling, training, etc.

Now, that still doesn't cover all 375M interactions between people and police. To that end, I'd say that police should be held to a different standard than protesters; they can start by showing restraint when they arrest protesters, and not pepper spray anyone who looks at them funny.

Same issue with "gun violence" being a bugaboo, when a legally owned gun is so much less likely to be used in a crime than a "mostly peaceful protest" is to burn down buildings.

The problem isn't only legally owned firearms though. It's an industry that pumps out so many firearms that it floods the market and a number of them find their way to those who don't technically own them. The firearm industry doesn't care who uses their guns, as long as they can manufacture more of them.


To me, it feels like both of the above cases are apples and oranges, and that if you unpack the particular histories you'd find that it's not hypocrisy to single out gun violence and/or police violence, but not violence at the periphery of protests. Although at the level the media conveys things, it certainly looks hypocritical.

 

[Dak]

But that doesn't mean the movement as a whole is misguided when what it's concerned about is issues pertaining not only to murders, but arrests, profiling, training, etc.

It is misguided. The efforts of BLM protests, when looked at through the lens of effective outcomes, is about increasing the number of blacks killed by blacks.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/03/crime-not-cops-is-by-far-the-largest-threat-to-black-lives/

Almost 96 percent of all shooters and shooting victims in the Big Apple in 2019 were people of color. People of color also accounted for 73.8 percent of rape victims and 81.3 percent of the rape suspects; 69 percent of robbery victims and 93.3 percent of the robbery suspects; and 79.5 percent of felony assault victims and 86 percent of the assault suspects.

People of color, in other words, are disproportionately both victims and perpetrators of violent crime in New York City. That is a cold fact. These proportions have remained remarkably consistent over the past 12 years.

Murders in New York are up 30 percent so far this year — 60 more people killed so far than last year. Close to 90 percent of the victims were people of color. There have been 1,095 shooting victims in Gotham so far this year — 514 more than last year. And 95 percent of these additional shooting victims were people of color.

If those 514 additional shooting victims had been residents of the Upper East Side, don’t you think the city would have a far different reaction than slashing $1 billion from the New York Police Department’s budget? Since 2003, more than 1,000 people have been murdered in New York City Housing Authority projects alone. Don’t those black lives matter?

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/n...0200706-weu7o754lrbsxbcs4vrf4ywxdy-story.html

An additional 17 cities provide year-to-date murder data. Murder is up 21.8% in all 36 cities with 2020 data through at least May, with 29 of those cities seeing an increase this year relative to last year.

That said, police should be held to a higher standard, and shouldn't have qualified immunity.

The problem isn't only legally owned automobiles though. It's an industry that pumps out so many automobiles that it floods the market and a number of them find their way to those who don't technically own them. The automobile industry doesn't care who uses their autos, as long as they can manufacture more of them.

Can literally do this with any industry of course.

To me, it feels like both of the above cases are apples and oranges, and that if you unpack the particular histories you'd find that it's not hypocrisy to single out gun violence and/or police violence, but not violence at the periphery of protests. Although at the level the media conveys things, it certainly looks hypocritical.

I would agree that the origins or mechanisms supporting the different types of violence are different but we are still talking about violence at the end of the day. Kind of like how apples and oranges are still both fruit. Which one is more salient or important or bad or whatever can be determined by actual risk, or the emotional valence of the thing. People in general determine risk by emotional valence (eg, greater fear of a shark attack than driving), but activists weaponize this anti-intellectualism and create worse outcomes by upending valuable structures and wasting resources in the process, all for the purpose of providing a handful of manipulative people a larger slice of a simultaneously diminished pie.

 

[Einherjar86]

It is misguided. The efforts of BLM protests, when looked at through the lens of effective outcomes, is about increasing the number of blacks killed by blacks.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/03/crime-not-cops-is-by-far-the-largest-threat-to-black-lives/

I don't think this makes sense.

Can literally do this with any industry of course.

I'm also opposed to the auto industry flooding the market with cars, for what it's worth.

I would agree that the origins or mechanisms supporting the different types of violence are different but we are still talking about violence at the end of the day. Kind of like how apples and oranges are still both fruit. Which one is more salient or important or bad or whatever can be determined by actual risk, or the emotional valence of the thing. People in general determine risk by emotional valence (eg, greater fear of a shark attack than driving), but activists weaponize this anti-intellectualism and create worse outcomes by upending valuable structures and wasting resources in the process, all for the purpose of providing a handful of manipulative people a larger slice of a simultaneously diminished pie.

I also don't think this makes sense. I feel like you're operating based on an impression of activists rather than what they actually do...

 

[Dak]

I don't think this makes sense.

I also don't think this makes sense. I feel like you're operating based on an impression of activists rather than what they actually do...

Why are murders up this year at the same time there is anti-police rioting while simultaneously other types of crime are mostly down? If my correlational analysis doesn't seem to point in the right direction, I'm open to alternative hypotheses.

I am aware that there are career activists who mostly do boring office work. These people are either the manipulative few fighting to reduce the pie while getting a larger slice, or separated from these by only a few degrees. To the degree that this is done consciously is irrelevant. This isn't where the muscle in activism is though. The muscle is the people getting bused around, being handed signs, etc. If we understand activism as low-intensity 5thGen warfare, the enlisted fight the battles, the low level officers lead them, and the upper level officers mostly play inter and intra politics. You're more likely familiar with and focused on the upper level officers and I'm focusing on the enlisted and in some cases the low level officers, to the degree that they are weaponized.

 

[Einherjar86]

Why are murders up this year at the same time there is anti-police rioting while simultaneously other types of crime are mostly down? If my correlational analysis doesn't seem to point in the right direction, I'm open to alternative hypotheses.

Mars in retrograde?

Seriously though, we're in a recession and unemployment's up. Why are protests more to blame than economic circumstances?

I am aware that there are career activists who mostly do boring office work. These people are either the manipulative few fighting to reduce the pie while getting a larger slice

I don't understand what you mean. Who's making a killing off of this?

The muscle is the people getting bused around, being handed signs, etc.

This by and large doesn't happen, Dak. You're repeating baseless conspiratorial "news" that my family shares on Facebook. These rumors originate on social media, and they're unsupported by evidence.

If we understand activism as low-intensity 5thGen warfare

It's not that, though. You're imagining an organization that doesn't exist.

 

[CiG]

I don't understand what you mean. Who's making a killing off of this?

Racial Justice Groups Flooded With Millions in Donations in Wake of Floyd Death.

Progressive and racial justice groups have seen a cascade of donations since George Floyd’s death and the ensuing protests. Bail funds alone have received $90 million.

“To see millions of people give millions of dollars creates hope out of this moment,” said Glynda C. Carr, the president of Higher Heights, a group dedicated to building the political power of black women and which saw a spike of 15,000 donations in two weeks — about 10 times more than usual. “In the end, not everybody went out and protested,” she said. “This was a way to participate.”

 

[Einherjar86]

Racial Justice Groups Flooded With Millions in Donations in Wake of Floyd Death.

You need another step there. Where's the money going?

Also, if organizers are supposedly pocketing the cash, why do this:

Money has come in so fast and so unexpectedly that some groups even began to turn away and redirect donors elsewhere.

EDIT: also, I'm not saying there aren't fraudulent organizations that don't distribute donations appropriately; but that very behavior means they don't qualify as legitimate activist groups. They're interested in profit, not activism.