If Mort Divine ruled the world

[rms]

Barometer for evidence is so low for the Taylor case , one dude hears police once and justifies the whole thing. Except property damage fucking joke.

 

[Einherjar86]

Roughly 7% of the protests have been violent according to research, and of the roughly 375 million interactions civilians have with police every year, about 1000 result in death at the hands of the police. Just saying, if we're calling out the "one drop" rule and all.

This probably deserves a longer response given that the protests are largely about police violence, but this is what I'll say. The issues at the heart of BLM police violence don't only have to do with how many people police kill, but how the police treat people of color. That's a much larger number and much more difficult to map.

The media and the movement sensationalize a few cases for the purpose of galvanizing a movement; and this is probably part of what Dak objects to about activism (a lot of activists extrapolate those few cases incorrectly). And it's true that dead bodies make more waves than a young black kid sent to prison for however-many years for possession of marijuana. But that doesn't mean the movement as a whole is misguided when its concerns pertain not only to murders, but arrests, profiling, training, etc.

Now, that still doesn't cover all 375M interactions between people and police. To that end, I'd say that police should be held to a different standard than protesters; they can start by showing restraint when they arrest protesters, and not pepper spray anyone who looks at them funny.

Same issue with "gun violence" being a bugaboo, when a legally owned gun is so much less likely to be used in a crime than a "mostly peaceful protest" is to burn down buildings.

The problem isn't only legally owned firearms though. It's an industry that pumps out so many firearms that it floods the market and a number of them find their way to those who don't technically own them. The firearm industry doesn't care who uses their guns, as long as they can manufacture more of them.


To me, it feels like both of the above cases are apples and oranges, and that if you unpack the particular histories you'd find that it's not hypocrisy to single out gun violence and/or police violence, but not violence at the periphery of protests. Although at the level the media conveys things, it certainly looks hypocritical.

 

[Dak]

But that doesn't mean the movement as a whole is misguided when what it's concerned about is issues pertaining not only to murders, but arrests, profiling, training, etc.

It is misguided. The efforts of BLM protests, when looked at through the lens of effective outcomes, is about increasing the number of blacks killed by blacks.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/03/crime-not-cops-is-by-far-the-largest-threat-to-black-lives/

Almost 96 percent of all shooters and shooting victims in the Big Apple in 2019 were people of color. People of color also accounted for 73.8 percent of rape victims and 81.3 percent of the rape suspects; 69 percent of robbery victims and 93.3 percent of the robbery suspects; and 79.5 percent of felony assault victims and 86 percent of the assault suspects.

People of color, in other words, are disproportionately both victims and perpetrators of violent crime in New York City. That is a cold fact. These proportions have remained remarkably consistent over the past 12 years.

Murders in New York are up 30 percent so far this year — 60 more people killed so far than last year. Close to 90 percent of the victims were people of color. There have been 1,095 shooting victims in Gotham so far this year — 514 more than last year. And 95 percent of these additional shooting victims were people of color.

If those 514 additional shooting victims had been residents of the Upper East Side, don’t you think the city would have a far different reaction than slashing $1 billion from the New York Police Department’s budget? Since 2003, more than 1,000 people have been murdered in New York City Housing Authority projects alone. Don’t those black lives matter?

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/n...0200706-weu7o754lrbsxbcs4vrf4ywxdy-story.html

An additional 17 cities provide year-to-date murder data. Murder is up 21.8% in all 36 cities with 2020 data through at least May, with 29 of those cities seeing an increase this year relative to last year.

That said, police should be held to a higher standard, and shouldn't have qualified immunity.

The problem isn't only legally owned automobiles though. It's an industry that pumps out so many automobiles that it floods the market and a number of them find their way to those who don't technically own them. The automobile industry doesn't care who uses their autos, as long as they can manufacture more of them.

Can literally do this with any industry of course.

To me, it feels like both of the above cases are apples and oranges, and that if you unpack the particular histories you'd find that it's not hypocrisy to single out gun violence and/or police violence, but not violence at the periphery of protests. Although at the level the media conveys things, it certainly looks hypocritical.

I would agree that the origins or mechanisms supporting the different types of violence are different but we are still talking about violence at the end of the day. Kind of like how apples and oranges are still both fruit. Which one is more salient or important or bad or whatever can be determined by actual risk, or the emotional valence of the thing. People in general determine risk by emotional valence (eg, greater fear of a shark attack than driving), but activists weaponize this anti-intellectualism and create worse outcomes by upending valuable structures and wasting resources in the process, all for the purpose of providing a handful of manipulative people a larger slice of a simultaneously diminished pie.

 

[Einherjar86]

It is misguided. The efforts of BLM protests, when looked at through the lens of effective outcomes, is about increasing the number of blacks killed by blacks.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/03/crime-not-cops-is-by-far-the-largest-threat-to-black-lives/

I don't think this makes sense.

Can literally do this with any industry of course.

I'm also opposed to the auto industry flooding the market with cars, for what it's worth.

I would agree that the origins or mechanisms supporting the different types of violence are different but we are still talking about violence at the end of the day. Kind of like how apples and oranges are still both fruit. Which one is more salient or important or bad or whatever can be determined by actual risk, or the emotional valence of the thing. People in general determine risk by emotional valence (eg, greater fear of a shark attack than driving), but activists weaponize this anti-intellectualism and create worse outcomes by upending valuable structures and wasting resources in the process, all for the purpose of providing a handful of manipulative people a larger slice of a simultaneously diminished pie.

I also don't think this makes sense. I feel like you're operating based on an impression of activists rather than what they actually do...

 

[Dak]

I don't think this makes sense.

I also don't think this makes sense. I feel like you're operating based on an impression of activists rather than what they actually do...

Why are murders up this year at the same time there is anti-police rioting while simultaneously other types of crime are mostly down? If my correlational analysis doesn't seem to point in the right direction, I'm open to alternative hypotheses.

I am aware that there are career activists who mostly do boring office work. These people are either the manipulative few fighting to reduce the pie while getting a larger slice, or separated from these by only a few degrees. To the degree that this is done consciously is irrelevant. This isn't where the muscle in activism is though. The muscle is the people getting bused around, being handed signs, etc. If we understand activism as low-intensity 5thGen warfare, the enlisted fight the battles, the low level officers lead them, and the upper level officers mostly play inter and intra politics. You're more likely familiar with and focused on the upper level officers and I'm focusing on the enlisted and in some cases the low level officers, to the degree that they are weaponized.

 

[Einherjar86]

Why are murders up this year at the same time there is anti-police rioting while simultaneously other types of crime are mostly down? If my correlational analysis doesn't seem to point in the right direction, I'm open to alternative hypotheses.

Mars in retrograde?

Seriously though, we're in a recession and unemployment's up. Why are protests more to blame than economic circumstances?

I am aware that there are career activists who mostly do boring office work. These people are either the manipulative few fighting to reduce the pie while getting a larger slice

I don't understand what you mean. Who's making a killing off of this?

The muscle is the people getting bused around, being handed signs, etc.

This by and large doesn't happen, Dak. You're repeating baseless conspiratorial "news" that my family shares on Facebook. These rumors originate on social media, and they're unsupported by evidence.

If we understand activism as low-intensity 5thGen warfare

It's not that, though. You're imagining an organization that doesn't exist.

 

[CiG]

I don't understand what you mean. Who's making a killing off of this?

Racial Justice Groups Flooded With Millions in Donations in Wake of Floyd Death.

Progressive and racial justice groups have seen a cascade of donations since George Floyd’s death and the ensuing protests. Bail funds alone have received $90 million.

“To see millions of people give millions of dollars creates hope out of this moment,” said Glynda C. Carr, the president of Higher Heights, a group dedicated to building the political power of black women and which saw a spike of 15,000 donations in two weeks — about 10 times more than usual. “In the end, not everybody went out and protested,” she said. “This was a way to participate.”

 

[Einherjar86]

Racial Justice Groups Flooded With Millions in Donations in Wake of Floyd Death.

You need another step there. Where's the money going?

Also, if organizers are supposedly pocketing the cash, why do this:

Money has come in so fast and so unexpectedly that some groups even began to turn away and redirect donors elsewhere.

EDIT: also, I'm not saying there aren't fraudulent organizations that don't distribute donations appropriately; but that very behavior means they don't qualify as legitimate activist groups. They're interested in profit, not activism.

 

[CiG]

I'm not saying most or all of the money isn't going to the cause, but I think it's dishonest at best to act like there's no money involved. At the very least that money will be going towards hiring new activists and better paying underpaid activists.

Also that "some groups even began to turn away and redirect donors elsewhere" part was quite unspecific. All that the article cites is a Brooklyn bail fund that started asking doners to give elsewhere after it got 1.8 million in 24 hours.

 

[Einherjar86]

I'm not saying most or all of the money isn't going to the cause, but I think it's dishonest at best to act like there's no money involved. At the very least that money will be going towards hiring new activists and better paying underpaid activists.

Also that "some groups even began to turn away and redirect donors elsewhere" part was quite unspecific. All that the article cites is a Brooklyn bail fund that started asking doners to give elsewhere after it got 1.8 million in 24 hours.

But as you say, there has to be some money involved--the people who run these groups still need to eat and sleep somewhere. I'm simply objecting to the notion that they're underhandedly pocketing most or even a bunch of the cash and sending out little anarchist soldiers. Activist organizers aren't mob bosses.

As I said, pocketing cash does happen; it's been reported on. But I don't think it's most groups (or it hasn't been shown to be most groups), and if it does happen then that group outs itself as not really about activism. It's basically a front, and when caught it gets in trouble.

 

[CiG]

I'm not saying they're funding an army of anarchists (though they're certainly using those funds to bail them out). The only thing I'm saying is a crazy amount of money is now a big part of post-Floyd murder #BLM activism.

It doesn't have to be money pocketing for someone to make a killing off this either, this kind of money creates new jobs, pays previously unpaid volunteers, acquires office space for organizations, creates incentive to protect said jobs going forward (either by profit-seeking or perpetual fundraising efforts) etc.

 

[Dak]

we're in a recession and unemployment's up. Why are protests more to blame than economic circumstances?

Why would murders be up and (with the exception of the instances of mass looting, not sure how those are getting recorded), and property crime be down if this were primarily economic in nature? Why would black people be killing black people at an elevated rate in a summer of protests about the killing of black people by white people (or uh, "white adjacent" people, like black police) if it's about economic issues?

This by and large doesn't happen, Dak. You're repeating baseless conspiratorial "news" that my family shares on Facebook. These rumors originate on social media, and they're unsupported by evidence.

It's not that, though. You're imagining an organization that doesn't exist.

"By and large" doesn't happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all though, and I didn't say there was any one organization. But there actually are networks of activist organizations in the form of non-profits/"chapters". It would be bizarre to claim otherwise. I'm barely on FB but I do track Michael Tracey and Andy Ngo, who aren't exactly QAnon proponents, and at least Andy has documented material support for "Direct action", which sometimes arrives in uhauls, and iirc him or Tracey have documented tent camps.

Separately, despite trying to NTS activists "profiting", "non-profits" are specifically so structured as a classification so that all increases in funding can simply be funneled to those who work for them. Voila, no "profits". This is why you have charities that turn over like 2% of donations while their senior execs are pocketing YUGE salaries. There's nothing structurally noble whatsoever about non-profits, quite the contrary.

https://moneyinc.com/worst-charities-you-shouldnt-be-donating-to/
https://www.tampabay.com/news/natio...ke-in-nearly-1-billion-for-corporate/2339540/

Grift and Graft are actually big business operating under a veneer of "donations" and "nonprofit status." This is almost pure value destruction ie shrinking pie.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabel...millions-to-anti-racism-efforts/#304f81e437dc
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-lives-matter-network-establishes-12m-grant-fund/

Monetary incentives. Cui bono.

 

[Einherjar86]

Why would murders be up and (with the exception of the instances of mass looting, not sure how those are getting recorded), and property crime be down if this were primarily economic in nature? Why would black people be killing black people at an elevated rate in a summer of protests about the killing of black people by white people (or uh, "white adjacent" people, like black police) if it's about economic issues?

Phillip Atiba Goff, co-founder and C.E.O. of the Center for Policing Equity, points to increased domestic violence as one possible cause of the increase in murder. “The first explanation that I have is that this comes from people being locked inside (during quarantines) and a lack of social services,” he said. “All those things are things that we would expect to lead to higher rates of violence. That’s speculation, though. I have no evidence that that’s the right thing other than the rise in calls for domestic violence.”

Mr. Ratcliffe agrees that increased domestic violence may be playing a role. He also hypothesizes that “Covid-19 could have reduced the market and opportunities for recreational drug use/dealing, which puts stress on the drug markets and increases violence.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/upshot/murders-rising-crime-coronavirus.html

There are plenty of possibilities other than civil disobedience.

"By and large" doesn't happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all though, and I didn't say there was any one organization. But there actually are networks of activist organizations in the form of non-profits/"chapters". It would be bizarre to claim otherwise. I'm barely on FB but I do track Michael Tracey and Andy Ngo, who aren't exactly QAnon proponents, and at least Andy has documented material support for "Direct action", which sometimes arrives in uhauls, and iirc him or Tracey have documented tent camps.

OK, but this feels different than what you said. Also, you used the word "busing," which has been flying around Facebook conspiracy theories about antifa protesters being brought in on buses (which Snopes points out always turn out to be something else).

Insofar as people organize, sure. But I don't see it being as problematic as you pitched it, or are still suggesting it is.

Separately, despite trying to NTS activists "profiting", "non-profits" are specifically so structured as a classification so that all increases in funding can simply be funneled to those who work for them. Voila, no "profits". This is why you have charities that turn over like 2% of donations while their senior execs are pocketing YUGE salaries. There's nothing structurally noble whatsoever about non-profits, quite the contrary.

Thanks for the info, but this is basically what I mean; one of the articles is titled "charities you shouldn't be donating to." Other groups come under legal fire. There are orgs that masquerade as charities but aren't.

I'm not saying they're funding an army of anarchists (though they're certainly using those funds to bail them out). The only thing I'm saying is a crazy amount of money is now a big part of post-Floyd murder #BLM activism.

It doesn't have to be money pocketing for someone to make a killing off this either, this kind of money creates new jobs, pays previously unpaid volunteers, acquires office space for organizations, creates incentive to protect said jobs going forward (either by profit-seeking or perpetual fundraising efforts) etc.

OK, but as I said to Dak above: why is this problematic?

Initially, this came off as crime ring-ish orgs taking money under the table (bigger slices of the pie and whatnot) and assigning would-be soldiers to "anarchist zones" or something. Based on what I'm seeing now, it doesn't seem nefarious.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I'm increasingly of the opinion with all of the benefit of hindsight that the American Revolution was probably a net-negative.

 

[Dak]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/upshot/murders-rising-crime-coronavirus.html

There are plenty of possibilities other than civil disobedience.

I don't have access to the NYT so not sure what possibilities are listed there. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that ""the riots" are the direct cause of additional deaths (although there have been murders connected to the riots/CHAZ etc). I'm saying that the atmosphere, at least partially created by anti-police demonstrations, is creating a permissive and/or encouraging atmosphere.

OK, but this feels different than what you said. Also, you used the word "busing," which has been flying around Facebook conspiracy theories about antifa protesters being brought in on buses (which Snopes points out always turn out to be something else).

Insofar as people organize, sure. But I don't see it being as problematic as you pitched it, or are still suggesting it is.

Thanks for the info, but this is basically what I mean; one of the articles is titled "charities you shouldn't be donating to." Other groups come under legal fire. There are orgs that masquerade as charities but aren't.

The two things I'm referring to here are tied to the money involved. Large efforts require money for both logistics and supporting/coordinating personnel. This money also draws people in chasing it. I'm not saying BLM is a charity or anything like that. I'm just pointing out that nonprofits aren't special. In fact they are structurally problematic for the reasons I've listed, and BLM or any other activist organization is just as flawed and full of people/attracting people responding to these and related moral hazards.

 

[Einherjar86]

I don't have access to the NYT so not sure what possibilities are listed there. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that ""the riots" are the direct cause of additional deaths (although there have been murders connected to the riots/CHAZ etc). I'm saying that the atmosphere, at least partially created by anti-police demonstrations, is creating a permissive and/or encouraging atmosphere.

I quoted them: increases in domestic violence (which have been documented), and potential disruption of supply in the domestic drug trade. Both of these would appear to be impacted more by economic circumstances and the pandemic and less by anti-police demonstrations.

The two things I'm referring to here are tied to the money involved. Large efforts require money for both logistics and supporting/coordinating personnel. This money also draws people in chasing it. I'm not saying BLM is a charity or anything like that. I'm just pointing out that nonprofits aren't special. In fact they are structurally problematic for the reasons I've listed, and BLM or any other activist organization is just as flawed and full of people/attracting people responding to these and related moral hazards.

I don't get where the initial objection was/is. Non-profits aren't perfect, no--neither are private businesses. But we acknowledge that private businesses are necessary, so it seems to me that, pursuant to this logic, we can say that non-profits are necessary too. Both fulfill a function. Are there those who will exploit that function? Sure. So what's the argument? That there are shitty people who take advantage of structural gaps and weaknesses?

 

[Dak]

I quoted them: increases in domestic violence (which have been documented), and potential disruption of supply in the domestic drug trade. Both of these would appear to be impacted more by economic circumstances and the pandemic and less by anti-police demonstrations.

Ah I see. I'm not saying the demonstrations are a direct cause, ie, people are being murdered via the demonstrations (although this has occurred). I'm saying that when anti-police sentiment is up, cops hole up, which then creates an atmosphere that is conducive to settling scores. Same phenomenon occurred during/after the Ferguson riots.

I don't get where the initial objection was/is. Non-profits aren't perfect, no--neither are private businesses. But we acknowledge that private businesses are necessary, so it seems to me that, pursuant to this logic, we can say that non-profits are necessary too. Both fulfill a function. Are there those who will exploit that function? Sure. So what's the argument? That there are shitty people who take advantage of structural gaps and weaknesses?

I'm saying that non-profits' function is perverted, structurally, and that this attracts a really bad mix of naive and narcissistic, manipulative people. There's plenty of perverse incentives created in types of for-profit industry as well (like finance, and the current structure of the broader economy in supporting TBTF megacorps is its own issue), but the pressure of profit making acts as a constraint (where this pressure is removed to varying degrees is where you get the most egregious abuses, ie finance).

What I will carve out in reference to non-profits are something like a Moose Lodge. While a national structure is relatively redundant and creates moral hazard, fostering local community enhancement is nominally valuable.

 

[CiG]

OK, but as I said to Dak above: why is this problematic?

Initially, this came off as crime ring-ish orgs taking money under the table (bigger slices of the pie and whatnot) and assigning would-be soldiers to "anarchist zones" or something. Based on what I'm seeing now, it doesn't seem nefarious.

It depends what you mean by "problematic" but I was simply answering your question about who is making a killing. I might disagree here and there with how the money is used or with the messages/goals the money is funding, but that doesn't mean I think there's a crime happening.

I should have been more clear.

 

[rms]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ed51e2-e244-11ea-ade1-28daf1a5e919_story.html

 

[CiG]