If Mort Divine ruled the world

Dak said:
Ah I see. I'm not saying the demonstrations are a direct cause, ie, people are being murdered via the demonstrations (although this has occurred). I'm saying that when anti-police sentiment is up, cops hole up, which then creates an atmosphere that is conducive to settling scores. Same phenomenon occurred during/after the Ferguson riots.
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I get what you're saying, but in the communities you're referring to people have always been hesitant to call the cops, and murder in Chicago has been a worsening problem for years. I can't make the claim that the violence is unrelated to the riots, but it just feels like the connection is so tenuous, unverifiable, and better explained by other factors.

I'm more prone to believe that the crimes and protests are both effects of an increased and overarching sense of panic and uncertainty.

Dak said:
I'm saying that non-profits' function is perverted, structurally, and that this attracts a really bad mix of naive and narcissistic, manipulative people. There's plenty of perverse incentives created in types of for-profit industry as well (like finance, and the current structure of the broader economy in supporting TBTF megacorps is its own issue), but the pressure of profit making acts as a constraint (where this pressure is removed to varying degrees is where you get the most egregious abuses, ie finance).
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Again, I understand, but I don't see where the significant evidence is for this. It's true that a lot of money has been going to charities and nonprofits lately, but that doesn't mean they're distributing the funds illegally or even inappropriately. There are cases in which this has been discovered, but they're in the minority.

This strikes me as similar to when I said (to borrow your words) that the police force is perverted, structurally, and that this attracts a bad mix of naive and narcissistic, manipulative people. You objected to that based on available evidence, as I am now re. nonprofits.
 
Einherjar86 said:
I get what you're saying, but in the communities you're referring to people have always been hesitant to call the cops, and murder in Chicago has been a worsening problem for years. I can't make the claim that the violence is unrelated to the riots, but it just feels like the connection is so tenuous, unverifiable, and better explained by other factors.

I'm more prone to believe that the crimes and protests are both effects of an increased and overarching sense of panic and uncertainty.
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I think you're making a Dunning-Kruger error here, particularly in the final sentence. Over-estimating the intelligence/appreciation of nuance and media-awareness of the types of people who tend to commit violent crime.

Einherjar86 said:
Again, I understand, but I don't see where the significant evidence is for this. It's true that a lot of money has been going to charities and nonprofits lately, but that doesn't mean they're distributing the funds illegally or even inappropriately. There are cases in which this has been discovered, but they're in the minority.

This strikes me as similar to when I said (to borrow your words) that the police force is perverted, structurally, and that this attracts a bad mix of naive and narcissistic, manipulative people. You objected to that based on available evidence, as I am now re. nonprofits.
Click to expand...

The police force may attract some of the wrong types of people, but at least they have filters (not always perfect to be sure). I've recently talked with someone who has done work on the psych filtering done for the police and I feel slightly better now than before, although no filter is perfect. But nonprofits aren't even structured in any way to filter against the type of problem I'm referring to. Rather, the structure encourages for selecting for people who will perpetuate the nonprofit and more importantly, divert funds inward rather than outward. This is because nonprofits are functionally barely distinct from pure bureaucracy, and Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy explains the problem.
 
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Dak said:
I think you're making a Dunning-Kruger error here, particularly in the final sentence. Over-estimating the intelligence/appreciation of nuance and media-awareness of the types of people who tend to commit violent crime.
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The second claim might make that error, but I don't think the first does. Not calling the cops doesn't have anything to do with media-awareness; it's often a learned feature of communities.

Dak said:
The police force may attract some of the wrong types of people, but at least they have filters (not always perfect to be sure). I've recently talked with someone who has done work on the psych filtering done for the police and I feel slightly better now than before, although no filter is perfect. But nonprofits aren't even structured in any way to filter against the type of problem I'm referring to. Rather, the structure encourages for selecting for people who will perpetuate the nonprofit and more importantly, divert funds inward rather than outward. This is because nonprofits are functionally barely distinct from pure bureaucracy, and Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy explains the problem.
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Some funds have to be diverted inward though. Also, there are social and legal incentives for nonprofit organizers to operate ethically. Finally, what do you mean by "perpetuate the nonprofit"--as in, after there's no more social need for it? Can you give an example of this happening?
 
Einherjar86 said:
The second claim might make that error, but I don't think the first does. Not calling the cops doesn't have anything to do with media-awareness; it's often a learned feature of communities.
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That's fair re: DK. But I don't think the hesitancy to call the cops is purely learned. There's an unlearned cultural piece (at least unlearned in the sense you mean). Protecting the communities worst elements because insider/outsider bias is a tribal common constant that is pre-Enlightenment in nature. One can claim cultural relativity here which is fine as far as it goes, but it means that in at least this case, diversity is not a strength.

Einherjar86 said:
Some funds have to be diverted inward though. Also, there are social and legal incentives for nonprofit organizers to operate ethically. Finally, what do you mean by "perpetuate the nonprofit"--as in, after there's no more social need for it? Can you give an example of this happening?
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Sure, some. But multi-sixfig salaries for a mountain of administration? I don't think so. There are, as evidenced by donations, few social incentives for ethical operation. I can't speak to the legal incentives. I'm not sure what you mean by an example of perpetuation of the non-profit. Do you mean how many non-profits achieved their aim and dissolved voluntarily? If that's the case, I'm not aware of any, which is to my point.
 
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Dak said:
That's fair re: DK. But I don't think the hesitancy to call the cops is purely learned. There's an unlearned cultural piece (at least unlearned in the sense you mean). Protecting the communities worst elements because insider/outsider bias is a tribal common constant that is pre-Enlightenment in nature. One can claim cultural relativity here which is fine as far as it goes, but it means that in at least this case, diversity is not a strength.
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I’m not sure I understand the difference between “learned” and tribalism.

Dak said:
Sure, some. But multi-sixfig salaries for a mountain of administration? I don't think so. There are, as evidenced by donations, few social incentives for ethical operation. I can't speak to the legal incentives. I'm not sure what you mean by an example of perpetuation of the non-profit. Do you mean how many non-profits achieved their aim and dissolved voluntarily? If that's the case, I'm not aware of any, which is to my point.
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Do a lot of nonprofit founders make six figures with no income from anywhere else? I’m sure some do, but is it common...?

Also, there’s a Wikipedia page for defunct U.S. nonprofits.
 
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I think that in America at least

People's eager willingness or insistant refusal to call the police is pretty clearly the result of tribalism

White people want to call the police for everything because they feel like the police are the "guardians of the tribe"

Where the Black people are kinda scared of the police because they feel like the police are the soldiers of a totally different tribe
 


Obviously she took full advantage of white male boomer chivalry but that was still funny as fuck.

"Look at this little dyke."

"I get more pussy than you motherfucker."

He was so mad he was literally shaking.
 
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