If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Dak]

One doesn't have to "come out" all over everyone's face with every little detail. To do so and then complain when there is a negative reaction is bullshit. The person who just has to demonstrate loudly, through various dress tactics and behaviors, not only that they fall somewhere outside the "binary", but absolutely exactly where outside the binary, is no better than a brodude.

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

Yeah, lets just throw something out because it isn't simple and easy to digest. Fuck anyone who doesn't fit in to the western binary because they make me uncomfortable and its too hard to have to think about.

That's not what I said. All I'm saying is that chart doesn't explain shit. For example, I thought genderqueer was androgynous, but this shows them to be polar opposites. And how is a neutrois different from being genderless. Plus, the chart doesn't tell what pronouns you're supposed to use with each of these groups.

 

[Mort Divine]

Are you kidding me? A person expressing their identity is "coming out all over everyone's face." If I were to. start wearing a skirt and putting on make up while out in public, and it was part of how I express myself as a person, I can expect that people are going to find it weird and respond negatively, but that doesn't delegitimize any anger towards that reaction.

The reaction to the dress and expressions are what is unjustified. Expressions of self that are harmless to others - on both an individual and societal level - are not worthy of condemnation. It is sensible to be angry when one is met with that condemnation.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

idk what's going on here but jeremy said what i'm thinking so good job swisty

 

[Mort Divine]

That's not what I said. All I'm saying is that chart doesn't explain shit. For example, I thought genderqueer was androgynous, but this shows them to be polar opposites. And how is a neutrois different from being genderless. Plus, the chart doesn't tell what pronouns you're supposed to use with each of these groups.

The chart itself doesn't explain things in detail. It is limited and I grant you that, but it's a chart meant to show gender as a spectrum not to give detailed analysis.

 

[waif]

One doesn't have to "come out" all over everyone's face with every little detail. To do so and then complain when there is a negative reaction is bullshit. The person who just has to demonstrate loudly, through various dress tactics and behaviors, not only that they fall somewhere outside the "binary", but absolutely exactly where outside the binary, is no better than a brodude.

On the other hand, consider the countless ways you implicitly confirm your cishet scum identity every day through your actions, body language, and words. If you fall outside the binary, every time you encounter one of those situations you must either out yourself or lie. There are definitely confrontational attention-seekers who get off on being self-righteous, no question, but I don't think those are the people mort's talking about.

 

[Zephyrus]

Moved this entire discussion to a more appropriate thread.

 

[Dak]

On the other hand, consider the countless ways you implicitly confirm your cishet scum identity every day through your actions, body language, and words. If you fall outside the binary, every time you encounter one of those situations you must either out yourself or lie. There are definitely confrontational attention-seekers who get off on being self-righteous, no question, but I don't think those are the people mort's talking about.

Implicitly. I've been around plenty of non-attention-seeking gays who are pretty cool to be around. They are, dare I say it, pretty normal. Even when with their same-sex-significant-other. Those aren't the ones getting the bad rap, as it were. Confrontational attention seeking in any form is not a sexual or gender orientation.

Edit: Mort. Where do you get off with the idea that people have to respond approvingly to all of everyone else's choices? You might say "I just don't want any response", but that isn't the case. Otherwise you wouldn't need to "identify" in public by wearing makeup and a skirt. You want a response but have no basis for demanding a particular kind.

 

[Mort Divine]

Yeah, you can be gay, trans, queer, etc. just as long as you are normal and act just like the rest of us.

 

[Mort Divine]

I don't know how you don't see that as a problem.

 

[Mort Divine]

No, bullshit. How can you accuse someone of wanting a response simply because they publicly do something outside the norm.

I've found you to be a bit off on these issues several times, but this is just beyond what I expect of you.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I think that line of thinking (which I don't entirely buy, but at the same time... ehhh) is a bit like artists or musicians who respond poorly to criticism, but who are clearly showing what they did to others. It's expression, it's a statement. Sure, perhaps a bit more "institutionalized" in a sense than dressing in a skirt if you're male, but meh. Don't fucking release it/put it out there in the world if you can't take some shit for it. To an extent, I can understand that. Yeah, being major assholes about it is wrong, but I don't think the reactionary approach being taken by some "oppressed" minorities does anything to further goodwill.

 

[The Butt]

What about the brodudes who are ridiculed for acting in an overly straight manner in public? :Spin:

 

[Zephyrus]

What about the brodudes who are ridiculed for acting in an overly straight manner in public? :Spin:

Are you talking about yourself?

 

[Mort Divine]

What about the brodudes who are ridiculed for acting in an overly straight manner in public? :Spin:

They're often not quite harmless.

If they're just goofy dudes drinking and having a good time while not sexually harassing people or being general pricks then cheers to them, but I've found the harmless bro dudes are not so common.

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

The chart itself doesn't explain things in detail. It is limited and I grant you that, but it's a chart meant to show gender as a spectrum not to give detailed analysis.

But surely you must have some understanding of these different distinctions, since you posted it. I already know that this is far from a universally accepted schema, since some other sources say that genderqueer is a more inclusive, catch-all term than what the chart suggests.

 

[waif]

Edit: Mort. Where do you get off with the idea that people have to respond approvingly to all of everyone else's choices? You might say "I just don't want any response", but that isn't the case. Otherwise you wouldn't need to "identify" in public by wearing makeup and a skirt. You want a response but have no basis for demanding a particular kind.

Is everything one does in public a statement? Wearing a skirt because that's what you feel comfortable in isn't confrontational, but it can make one's non-heteronormative lifestyle immediately apparent.

I'm not convinced you guys really disagree on anything important. I think we're all clear that you shouldn't go around looking for excuses to spout off on how oppressed and special you are, and you also shouldn't go around beating up on people for being gay or dressing weird or whatever.

 

[Tonka Time]

idk what's going on here but jeremy said what i'm thinking so good job swisty

Pretty much.

I'd like to relate wearing a skirt and makeup as a man in public to wearing a patch jacket with black or death metal patches on it.
You know what you're wearing, and you know how "normal" people will react to it(whether it's right or wrong). So I don't understand the whole "OMG why are people judging me!?" kind of thinking. Also if unity isn't as important as identity why fight to make everyone accept everything?

 

[unknown]

because I don't think people get the shit beaten out of them/killed for wearing patch vest/jackets in public (or if they do then it's far less often I'm sure)

 

[Tonka Time]

because I don't think people get the shit beaten out of them/killed for wearing patch vest/jackets in public

true.

But if you're living in an area where you know you will be beaten or killed for dressing a certain way you should move or not dress that way.
It's like living in a gang neighborhood wearing a rival gang's colors.

Is it that common for men who dress in drag to be beaten or killed in towns/cities that don't already have a violence problem?