Industrial Metal

[General Zaroff]

Genres aren't opinion you fucking goon, the common man believes that Poison and Kiss were metal bands - but they fucking are not.

And the common scene girl thinks Grindcore is wecamewithbrokenteeth and Napalm Death isn't, and Death Metal is screamo and Underoath is Death Metal.

True story, some girl said that.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

I already did asshole, M-A doesn't have them on there. That's all the more proof you need.

Not when a shitton of other major music sites list them as metal. Check out The Metal Observer or Metal Reviews. They're there. Also, Metal Archives' omission of Rammstein, while implying that they don't 'qualify', is still not an explicit statement regarding their genre. There is no such statement on that site.

edit: I suppose the bands own myspace labelling themselves as "industrial" without any reference to metal doesn't hurt either.

I didn't see any mention of a genre there, so if you really care, feel free to take a screenshot of this magical page of yours and post it here. And while you're at it, you might want to show me some evidence that the myspace is even endorsed by the band. Somehow I doubt that it is.

 

[King Richard]

In light of Rammstein though, one of my favorite songs of theirs:

 

[Söy]

ich bin der Reiterrr du bist dass Ross...rein! raus!


tieferrr tieferrr sag ess! sag es lauttt

 

[Koude Haat]

geh fick deine mutter

 

[King Richard]

Not when a shitton of other major music sites list them as metal. Check out The Metal Observer or Metal Reviews. They're there. Also, Metal Archives' omission of Rammstein, while implying that they don't 'qualify', is still not an explicit statement regarding their genre. There is no such statement on that site.

Both the Metal Observer and Metal Reviews site has System of a Down listed as a metal band. Good job at finding some reliable sources dumbass.

I didn't see any mention of a genre there, so if you really care, feel free to take a screenshot of this magical page of yours and post it here. And while you're at it, you might want to show me some evidence that the myspace is even endorsed by the band. Somehow I doubt that it is.

They call themselves industrial, right below their name. Are you fucking blind?

Rammstein's Myspace

 

[zabu of nΩd]

It would probably help to keep in mind that "heavy metal" is basically a contextual term made up of a composite of viewpoints. There are a lot of bands who would qualify as "metal" under a broader interpretation of the term, but not under a stricter interpretation.

I'm pretty sure I'd never heard Rammstein called "not metal" until this thread - and the wide variety of sources I've given shows why. Under most people's interpretation of metal, Rammstein is metal. You guys just happen to interpret the genre more strictly, to the effect that bands with a significant alternative rock/industrial rock/whatever influence don't qualify.

If you think about it, most early metal bands had to necessarily be influenced by rock. If a rock influence is all it takes to make a band not metal, then there are no metal bands. I don't see why any rock influences of Rammstein's would disqualify them as metal.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

If you think about it, most early metal bands had to necessarily be influenced by rock. If a rock influence is all it takes to make a band not metal, then there are no metal bands. I don't see why any rock influences of Rammstein's would disqualify them as metal.

You are misinformed. Listen to Laibach's Opus Dei. Now try to find one pre-Rammstein *metal* album that sounds even half as much as Rammstein as that. Rammstein is not metal with industrial influences, they are industrial with rock influences. They are Laibach with distorted guitars and rock song structures. They are not metal in any way unless you use the useless mainstream media definition of metal ("loud and heavy").

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Both the Metal Observer and Metal Reviews site has System of a Down listed as a metal band. Good job at finding some reliable sources dumbass.

They call themselves industrial, right below their name. Are you fucking blind?

Rammstein's Myspace

So, do you want to have an actual debate, or just an adolescent level bitching match? Cause you're doing far more bitching than debating.

I see the word "industrial" there. Good job. That's one non-metal reference to my 5-or-so. And I still have no evidence that the band actually endorses that myspace account. Such evidence would come from the band's official website.

As for the System of a Down jab, see my above post. There are different interpretations of the term "metal". SOAD's a pretty borderline case, but they're not something that would be excluded from every metal review mag/site. If you want to use that as grounds to toss out the whole reference, that sounds pretty picky to me, but since all you've given me so far is some myspace page, I don't see how you expect me to change my mind.

 

[Mort Divine]

BECAUSE THE ROCK IS MORE FUCKING THERE THAN THE FUCKING METAL FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Also there is no broad interpretation and strict interpretation. Metal is what it fucking is - not open to definition interpretation.

 

[King Richard]

Well here's some food for thought. Generally, bands actually acknowledge the type of music they are making. I mean, Cannibal Corpse tells everyone they are metal, same with Slayer etc. Or if they don't, it's pretty obvious to most people what form of music they play. I don't think I've ever heard Godsmack going around saying "WE LOVE METAL! ALL HAIL OUR METAL SKEELZ!", people just interpret that they are metal because of their distorted guitars. Same goes for Rush and Led Zeppelin. Both of these bands do not want to be labelled metal. They said so themselves, but there are still dumbasses all over the world who claim they are. Which is the same case here.

Point is, Rammstein has never openly admitted to being metal. Everyone KNOWS they are an industrial band. So why not just leave it at that? Why do people like you have to throw in all this bs reasoning as to why you think they ARE. When they've never said so themselves?

 

[King Richard]

So, do you want to have an actual debate, or just an adolescent level bitching match? Cause you're doing far more bitching than debating.

I see the word "industrial" there. Good job. That's one non-metal reference to my 5-or-so. And I still have no evidence that the band actually endorses that myspace account. Such evidence would come from the band's official website.

As for the System of a Down jab, see my above post. There are different interpretations of the term "metal". SOAD's a pretty borderline case, but they're not something that would be excluded from every metal review mag/site. If you want to use that as grounds to toss out the whole reference, that sounds pretty picky to me, but since all you've given me so far is some myspace page, I don't see how you expect me to change my mind.

Are you fucked in the head?

There's no room for debate about System of a Down. Goddamn, I'm not wasting my time with your stupid ass anymore. Oh and by the way...THE FUCKING BAND THEMSELVES RUN THEIR OWN MYSPACE. Get a fucking clue.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

You are misinformed. Listen to Laibach's Opus Dei. Now try to find one pre-Rammstein *metal* album that sounds even half as much as Rammstein as that. Rammstein is not metal with industrial influences, they are industrial with rock influences. They are Laibach with distorted guitars and rock song structures. They are not metal in any way unless you use the useless mainstream media definition of metal ("loud and heavy").

Didn't I just show that metal bands don't have to be primarily influenced by other metal bands? I know that Rammstein has non-metal influences. That doesn't mean that they can't add elements of metal to the formula of their predecessors. Based on what I've heard of theirs, that sounds like exactly what they did.

And I find it funny that you call the mainstream media definition of metal useless when neither you, nor anyone else here, has even bothered to give a "real" definition of metal. It's a contextual term anyway. Do you really expect to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that Rammstein cannot be termed "metal"?

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Didn't I just show that metal bands don't have to be primarily influenced by other metal bands?

Where?

I know that Rammstein has non-metal influences. That doesn't mean that they can't add elements of metal to the formula of their predecessors. Based on what I've heard of theirs, that sounds like exactly what they did.

Have you heard Opus Dei? I'm thinking no. Maybe you can list the metal bands that have influenced Rammstein, starting with the most influential. A band with 100% non-metal influences (such as Rammstein) isn't metal, even if they were for the sake of argument only 80% non-metal influenced they still wouldn't be considered metal. Why should they be?

And I find it funny that you call the mainstream media definition of metal useless when neither you, nor anyone else here, has even bothered to give a "real" definition of metal. It's a contextual term anyway. Do you really expect to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that Rammstein cannot be termed "metal"?

Metal: bands influenced primarily by preceding metal bands (i.e. are part of the ongoing development of the genre dating back to Black Sabbath) while not incorporating a majority of foreign influences.

If you had a basic knowledge of industrial music you would see how Rammstein fits much more comfortably into that family tree than into the metal one.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

BECAUSE THE ROCK IS MORE FUCKING THERE THAN THE FUCKING METAL FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Also there is no broad interpretation and strict interpretation. Metal is what it fucking is - not open to definition interpretation.

Are you fucked in the head?

There's no room for debate about System of a Down. Goddamn, I'm not wasting my time with your stupid ass anymore. Oh and by the way...THE FUCKING BAND THEMSELVES RUN THEIR OWN MYSPACE. Get a fucking clue.

OH, GOOD IDEA. MAYBE IF YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND ACT REALLY PISSED OFF, YOU'LL WIN THE ARGUMENT. WOW, I BETTER BACK DOWN NOW. THIS IS GETTING A LITTLE TOO INTENSE FOR ME. :Smug:

Neither of you have any debating skill whatsoever. When you make a point, you're supposed to give arguments for its validity, not keep repeating the same goddamn point over and over again.

@ Mort: I'm quite positive that "metal" is not a rigid term. But since you're just shooting off your opinions today, I'll just assume you don't actually care about backing up what you have to say.

@ Richard: there are such things as unofficial myspace accounts that pose as official ones. Not that this is really a worthwhile thing to get caught up on, but I thought it would be nice if you could show me that this label of "industrial" isn't just from some random fanboy.

And yes, there is room for debate about System of a Down. Because life isn't made up of black and white, children. Not everything can be perfectly broken up into neat little compartments.

I take it this discussion is over. Besides probably a few more pointless flames from you guys in the next few minutes. Oh well - I think I've made my point.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Where?

Well, since most metal heads like to call Black Sabbath the first metal band, let's take them for instance. They had influences, right? Since they were the first metal band, their influences were not metal, right? That means Black Sabbath did not have metal influences. And therefore, a band does not have to have metal influences in order to be metal.

Have you heard Opus Dei? I'm thinking no. Maybe you can list the metal bands that have influenced Rammstein, starting with the most influential. A band with 100% non-metal influences (such as Rammstein) isn't metal, even if they were for the sake of argument only 80% non-metal influenced they still wouldn't be considered metal. Why should they be?

Just out of curiosity, can you name me some metal bands that Ministry has cited as an influence? Because from my understanding, the vast majority of their influences are industrial, new wave, electronic music, etc. Not metal. And yet even the Rammstein naysayers here seem happy to call Ministry metal.

I can see Rammstein as having come from a primarily (non-metal) industrial base. However, since Rammstein utilises such heavy metal elements as loud, distorted guitars, chugging rhythms, heavy drumming, bombastic lyrical themes, etc., they sound like more than just their influences. Just because you can't point to "the metal band" that influenced them does not mean that they hadn't heard metal before, and decided, "hey - let's mix some of that style with an industrial sound and do industrial metal!"

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Well, since most metal heads like to call Black Sabbath the first metal band, let's take them for instance. They had influences, right? Since they were the first metal band, their influences were not metal, right? That means Black Sabbath did not have metal influences. And therefore, a band does not have to have metal influences in order to be metal.

By this reasoning you have created a logical black hole wherein Willie Nelson can be considered metal. Please try again without using such an obviously atypical case.

Just out of curiosity, can you name me some metal bands that Ministry has cited as an influence? Because from my understanding, the vast majority of their influences are industrial, new wave, electronic music, etc. Not metal. And yet even the Rammstein naysayers here seem happy to call Ministry metal.

Don't care for Ministry, don't know much about them. But this isn't about what Rammstein is citing as their influences, but what their influences are. They didn't have to tell us they were influenced by Laibach, we knew that because they sound almost identical to Laibach.

I can see Rammstein as having come from a primarily (non-metal) industrial base. However, since Rammstein utilises such heavy metal elements as loud, distorted guitars, chugging rhythms, heavy drumming, bombastic lyrical themes, etc.,

None of which are unique to metal or foreign to industrial.

they sound like more than just their influences.

Again, have you even heard Opus Dei?

Just because you can't point to "the metal band" that influenced them does not mean that they hadn't heard metal before, and decided, "hey - let's mix some of that style with an industrial sound and do industrial metal!"

Even if this were the case, incorporating metal into another subgenre doesn't make for metal - or do you consider thrash metal to be a punk subgenre?

 

[Dee Snarl]

Genres are not facts. They are opinions; there will always be grey area, and people will disagree.

That said, none of that shit is strictly-speaking metal, not Rammstein, not Ministry, not Fear Factory, not Korn, not Faith No More, not SOAD, not Slipknot, etc. They are coming from a different place (alternative rock). This says nothing of their quality, though, coincidentally, all nu-metal bands suck, with the exception of SOAD, who rule.

And The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste is the essential Ministry album.

 

[CAIRATH]

Ministry are awesome.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

@ formica

How about we finish this tomorrow? Or maybe over AIM, so this doesn't take 15 years? I've got shit to do today.

At least you know how to argue, unlike the others here. I'll get back to you on those points.