Let's make me a good bassist... tips?

[(__Joonas__)]

A new octave starts at fret 12, that's why the pattern only starts to repeat itself at fret 12. It takes a while to learn a scale all over the fret board due to this. These number things I'm posting are only the open string positions for a scale.

Devils interval is basically the interval between the open E string and the 1st fret of the A string, on your bass that would be open B string and the first fret of the E string.

A good really spooky sounding scale is Phygrian Dominant (Also known as the 5th mode of a Harmonic Minor):
124
023
023
014

or a perhaps even spookier variation:
124
123
023
014

I only recently figured why the 12th fret is marked so notably on the fretboard... it's the same note when pressed down or open.

But those notes in B-tuning would be... 5th fret on the B-string and 6th fret on the E-string. So this is what I'm confused about.

But then what frets after that when going right?

 

[ESA1996]

I only recently figured why the 12th fret is marked so notably on the fretboard... it's the same note when pressed down or open.

But those notes in B-tuning would be... 5th fret on the B-string and 6th fret on the E-string. So this is what I'm confused about.

But then what frets after that when going right?

Yes, an open string and the 12th fret on the same string are the same note exactly one octave apart. The 24th fret would be the same note again but basses rarely have that many frets as they aren't needed.

Devils interval is any two notes that have that same amount of notes between them. Interval literally means the distance between two notes. Here's a list of the different intervals (Translated from Finnish so some of the names might be slightly different than what they are in English): small 2nd, big 2nd, small/minor 3rd, big/major 3rd, 4th, augmented 4th / devil's interval / tritonus / flattened 5th, 5th, small/minor 6th, big/major 6th, small 7th, big 7th, octave. As for the devil's interval, E and Bb, F and B, F# and C, G and C# etc., are all devil's intervals.

The link I posted has a tuning option in it which I already set to B standard so you don't have to transpose anything in it. B minor in B tuning is played exactly the same as E minor in E tuning.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Hmm... how do I determine which way I go on keyboard / fretboard if I read 'E and A' for example? Because the distance is different depending which way I go to form the interval.

Ah I get it. The devil's interval just means two notes played that have a distance of 6 half steps, which is half an octave. I think it's confusing to say "three whole steps", because there practically is no C flat or F flat, or B sharp and E sharp...

I still don't get how is a scale the same if it's played from the same positions in different tunings! As different notes have different character, and scales are all about a certain character.

 

[ESA1996]

Hmm... how do I determine which way I go on keyboard / fretboard if I read 'E and A' for example? Because the distance is different depending which way I go to form the interval.

Ah I get it. The devil's interval just means two notes played that have a distance of 6 half steps, which is half an octave. I think it's confusing to say "three whole steps", because there practically is no C flat or F flat, or B sharp and E sharp...

I still don't get how is a scale the same if it's played from the same positions in different tunings! As different notes have different character, and scales are all about a certain character.

If it's a chord one would most likely say the lower note first. If it's a melody that goes, say, E B C A E then there'd be no way to determine whether you go up or down when playing the notes.

Exactly.

What I mean is that E minor in E standard is played with the exact same frets as D minor in D tuning etc. Similarly E major in E tuning is played with the same frets as D major in D tuning. Similarly the pattern of A minor on an E tuned guitar is the same as the pattern of G minor on a D tuned guitar.

The character of notes comes from a system where they would tune a piano to C major. Nowadays they just tune the notes to have equal distances from each other. Back then they tuned every note to sound as good as possible together with a C note. This caused all other scales to be slightly out of tune (The difference is ridiculously small) but it also caused the fact that some pros who'd spent way too much listening to music (Lol) were able to hear differences between the same melody played in C major and, say, E major, claiming that the E major one sounded more happy or sad or spooky than the C major one though the note intervals (Not the frequency intervals as they are what just intonation is all about, just the notes) were the same.

 

[ESA1996]

This one shows a guy playing classical stuff first in C major just intonation, then in C# just intonation and then the modern C equal temperament.

Just intonation is what they used in the times of Beethoven etc. Nowadays everything is tuned in equal temperament so C major and D major sound the same except for the difference in pitch. In just intonation the intervals between the notes would be slightly different and the keys would not only be in a different pitch but sound a tiny bit different too.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Hmm. But different notes have different vibe to them and can be told apart even on different octaves if one has trained ear, right? So it's not just pitch, they have some sound wave characteristic to each of them?

 

[ESA1996]

Having made some more research into it...

Meantone temperament came first. This one is made to sound good in C major and a few other keys. It will sound a tiny bit out of tune in most keys TLDR: A few scales are exactly in tune while most are out of tune.

Well temperament came second. Not quite as in tune in C major as meantone but this can be used in more keys than meantone without sounding out of tune. TLDR: A handful of scales are extremely near to exact tune while some are slightly out of tune.

Equal tempered is what we use nowadays. All keys sound the same, never quite in tune but never too far from it either. TLDR: Everything is close to being in tune but nothing is exactly in tune.

Now of course a note will always be in tune as there is no law of physics that says an A must be 442 hz instead of, say, 440 hz etc. so everything above applies only to scales and the chords in them.

Also, I don't claim to be an expert with this stuff so there might be mistakes here. Even so I am quite certain that the talk about "tone" and "character" of notes (Keys to be exact, not individual notes) is the result of meantone temperament and well temperament tunings being used before the invention of the modern equal temperament tuning.

 

[ESA1996]

Hmm. But different notes have different vibe to them and can be told apart even on different octaves if one has trained ear, right? So it's not just pitch, they have some sound wave characteristic to each of them?

Some people have (It can not be learned IIRC and I did do some research into it some years ago) what is called perfect pitch and can tell notes apart no matter the octave but AFAIK they do it by pitch alone. I have never heard of anyone claiming to hear a difference between a B and a C note other than pitch.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I understand notes have a "color", they have a unique soundwave map. So it's not possible to transpose a piano half step or full step to either direction, as to make D sound as low as C, cos then it would just become a C note. I'm not sure tho, gets confusing.

Yeah maybe it's just good audio memory...

Maybe it's lack of practice, but when trying to figure notes for a fast melody where the notes are close to each other, especially on high or low pitches, I have trouble telling the exact notes. Not sure if I believe some can naturally tell them out instantly, without practicing to know notes by memory. Maybe they just practice to memorize those notes so much that eventually they announce 'yep, I have absolute note ear'. Heard so many chicks claim that.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

It's uncommon, but there are certainly people with absolute pitch, Frank Zappa for instance. Mozart more than likely as well. Then there's the rest of us who have to tirelessly train our ears to recognize and identify pitches, notes, keys, etc.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Well yes, you hit any interval on piano and they can instantly tell which two notes are being played...

 

[ESA1996]

Well yes, you hit any interval on piano and they can instantly tell which two notes are being played...

If you're playing two notes at the same time that changes things though in general even most of the true pros need to know which key said chord is from, or, if it's only two notes that are being played, they need to know one or the other (Unless they have perfect pitch which they most likely do not have). Anyway, identifying a chord or an interval is possible because different intervals have very distinct characteristics to them. You can try it yourself. Play a minor 3rd and a major 3rd. Even without training you will be able to tell the difference. It gets hard when you have to identify the intervals instead of just thinking is it a major 3rd or a minor 3rd. Also, when identifying chords it becomes hard as there are more than two notes and thus intervals.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Where can I learn those things like diminished, augmented, major, minor, fifths, etc?

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Where can I learn those things like diminished, augmented, major, minor, fifths, etc?

There's a decent app called Yousician that takes a more theory based approach, bass is one of the instruments it's calibrated for, see what you can find.

 

[ESA1996]

Where can I learn those things like diminished, augmented, major, minor, fifths, etc?

Semitone Interval
0 Perfect unison
1 Minor second
2 Major second
3 Minor third
4 Major third
5 Perfect fourth
6 Augmented 4th / Diminished 5th
7 Perfect fifth
8 Minor sixth
9 Major sixth
10 Minor seventh
11 Major seventh
12 Perfect octave

Learning to identify them can be done by playing them with a piano with your eyes closed. Just play two random notes from the same octave and try to identify the interval.

All the perfect intervals sound very pure. The 3rds and the 6ths sound either happy or sad depending on whether it's a major or minor one. The 2nds, 7ths and the augmented 4 / diminished 5th all sound very dissonant and are almost never used in harmonies and rarely in chords (Unless one listens to Jazz).

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Will it help or hinder my development if I try to instinctively jam along to songs on a fly?

 

[ESA1996]

Will it help or hinder my development if I try to instinctively jam along to songs on a fly?

Assuming by instinctively you mean that you listen to a song and try to play on top of it, hell no. It's a good way to train your ear. Easier than normal tabbing and more enjoyable too. I do this every now and then. Start with simple stuff first so that you actually can get it at least mostly right. Caladan Brood that I mentioned earlier should be easy, at least for guitar it is.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I thought it could be fun or interesting to try jamming over one CD every day. Just curious if it could be misleading to myself and thus dangerous to ear training. I might play completely wrong. But I guess the bassist's job involves "listening to what others do." Well, sounds fun. I've memorized the B Harmonic Minor scale somewhat, but since my bass is inlay-less it's trickier to try any quick shifts from place to place. But you're supposed to be able to play while not looking at the instrument.

 

[ESA1996]

I thought it could be fun or interesting to try jamming over one CD every day. Just curious if it could be misleading to myself and thus dangerous to ear training. I might play completely wrong. But I guess the bassist's job involves "listening to what others do." Well, sounds fun. I've memorized the B Harmonic Minor scale somewhat, but since my bass is inlay-less it's trickier to try any quick shifts from place to place. But you're supposed to be able to play while not looking at the instrument.

Inlays do help yeah. Few people play without looking at their fretboard at all. I can play stuff without looking but whenever I'm going up or down the neck I usually look at what I'm doing or at least take a glance every now and then.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I've the tiny dots on the upper side of the neck, it's better than nothing, but I can avoid looking at them if I want more challenge.

First full album "instinctive playover" (this phrase is now coined) was this evening, Something Wild. I could've probably got away with that live if people were drunk, which makes me think how forgiving the bass can be to untrained ears. Guitar is a whole different story. But... to know exactly what should be played is pretty much as challenging as guitar, not motorically but otherwise; it's not a sports tool after all - the intention is not to fool oneself. This is for ear training etc.