Let's make me a good bassist... tips?

[ESA1996]

I'd recommend practicing the scales like this (It's what I do):

G l ---------------------------0-2-4-2-0--------------------------
D l -------------------0-2-4--------------4-2-0------------------
A l ----------0-2-3--------------------------------3-2-0---------
E l -0-2-3-------------------------------------------------3-2-0-

G l ---------------------------2-4-5-4-2--------------------------
D l -------------------2-4-5--------------5-4-2------------------
A l ----------2-3-5--------------------------------5-3-2---------
E l -2-3-5-------------------------------------------------5-3-2-

G l ---------------------------4-5-7-5-4--------------------------
D l -------------------4-5-7--------------7-5-4------------------
A l ----------3-5-7--------------------------------7-5-3---------
E l -3-5-7-------------------------------------------------7-5-3-

G l ---------------------------5-7-9-7-5--------------------------
D l -------------------5-7-9--------------9-7-5------------------
A l ----------5-7-9--------------------------------9-7-5---------
E l -5-7-8-------------------------------------------------9-7-5-

G l ---------------------------7-9-11-9-7---------------------------
D l -------------------7-9-10--------------10-9-7------------------
A l ----------7-9-10--------------------------------10-9-7---------
E l -7-8-10--------------------------------------------------10-8-7-

G l ----------------------------------9-11-12-11-9---------------------------
D l -----------------------9-10-12------------------12-10-9------------------
A l ------------9-10-12----------------------------------------12-10-9---------
E l -8-10-12-------------------------------------------------------------12-10-8-

G l ---------------------------------------11-12-14-12-11---------------------------
D l ---------------------------10-12-14---------------------14-12-10------------------
A l --------------10-12-14-----------------------------------------------14-12-10---------
E l -10-12-14-------------------------------------------------------------------------14-12-10-

The patterns repeat themselves from the 12th fret onward.

 

[mrKRB64]

ESA1996 has given you really good tips & practise scales- just remember to have fun though as it seems like your trying to get good too fast. Motivation is great but you can burn yourself out.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I went thru both of your lessons, it took one hour. I kind of managed to memorize it physically... then it's about getting it down as clear as if seeing the notes in red. The way I remember the scale is on a span of 12 frets there occurs on a single fret: 4 notes on a fret four times, 3 notes two times, 2 notes two times, 1 note two times, 0 notes two times, and just remembering visually and physically where those spots exist.

I'll next dive into Esa's post about chords, I need to grasp an understanding about them...

^I'm having fun too, I like playing over a full CD now and then, just using instinct... In the past I learned some songs by tabs... Now I want to learn theory as well and to know actually how to play an instrument. I wouldn't really do this if I wasn't excited. Sure there's no shortcuts, but I can take certain leapfrogs cos I did play some guitar and keyboard stuff years ago and having dived into music such as Bodom is a good foundation. Got some catching up to do.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I figured an essential thing I need to practice. That is memorizing chords from the scale I'm favoring, then learning ways to play them as arpeggios by using more than one octave... spreading wider on the fretboard to catch a desired note in a different place, jumping octaves.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I now went thru the 7 chords belonging in B minor natural scale. I looked a piano video lesson and then went for those tones on the bass fretboard. They can all be played in the normal shape on three places on the fretboard on 4-string 21 fret bass, except G is in four places. Now I know I could play a chord as arpeggio and if skill is there I could jump from the chord's normal shape to another spot to find other tones, hehe, well it takes time to be able to do that comfortably without much thinking.

I liked to memorize them by first playing the chord from the middle (close to 12th fret), then closer to neck, then closer to bridge, where they may exist...

I can see now that filling too much soundscape isn't the only reason why no actual chords are played on bass usually... it's near impossible to spread fingers that wide, while having punch on the strings, and doing it smooth & fast.

Now, these chords all include 3 tones in them. So can I look for the 7th and 9th only from tones higher in pitch? Or only important thing is that some of the tones are played that belong in the chord being played?

 

[ESA1996]

Now, these chords all include 3 tones in them. So can I look for the 7th and 9th only from tones higher in pitch? Or only important thing is that some of the tones are played that belong in the chord being played?

A default chord always goes up in the intervals. A basic triad has 1, 3 and 5, but chords with the added intervals of 7, 9 (Second an octave higher) 11 (4th an octave higher) and 13 (6th an octave higher) do exist too (Mostly used in jazz though, especially the latter ones). While the standard chords (Where the 1st is the lowest note and the biggest interval the highest) are most common, inverted triads such as a B minor triad when played F# B D instead of the standard B D F# are very common too. I'm not too sure on how common the inverted chords are with 7th chords or the other more complex chords, but they do exist. I seem to remember my theory / guitar teacher mentioning something along the lines of inverted 7+ths being used but mostly in forms where the bottom note is either the 1st, 3rd or the 5th as putting the 7th as the lowest note in, say, a major 7th chord, would result in a minor second between the 7th and the root note which sounds extremely dissonant and thus bad (Sevenths sounds pretty dissonant too but perhaps a bit less so). This can be "fixed" by something that is done quite a bit in jazz AFAIK. What they do is that for the more complex chords the guitar emits the root note, leaving it for the bass. For example a Bm7 would be played with the bass playing a B and the guitar playing D, F# and A (Which is actually a D major triad. Combined with the B played by the bass it becomes a Bm7). When using such a tactic it doesn't really matter whether the 7th is the bottom note or not when inverting chords AFAIK, as the root played by the bass will be the usual 7 intervals below the 7th played by the guitar.

There are also sus4 and sus2 chords (Triad + 4th, triad + 2nd). Something that took me a while to realize is that 6th chords don't exist as they are just inverted 7ths. For example a hypothetical Bm6 chord would consist of B, D F# and G. A Gmaj7 consists of G, B, D and F#. Thus it follows that said hypothetical Bm6 is actually just Gmaj7 / 3 (G major 7th with the 3rd as the bottom note).

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I'll return to that post once I learn some more so I can grasp that.

Any views on how to develop a personal style to play solo by your own? It happens within one scale?

 

[ESA1996]

I'll return to that post once I learn some more so I can grasp that.

Any views on how to develop a personal style to play solo by your own? It happens within one scale?

You can change scales within a solo, but not too often. You can also play chromatic stuff but it's pretty hard to make anything sound good with it (Flight of the Bumblebee is the only song I know that is almost exclusively chromatic). If there is a modulation (The "Eurovision trick" (Quote from you actually ) of lifting the melody up by a few semitones such as the one used in the end of the WIWI chorus) in the backing track the scale used in the solo will change accordingly. Most solos keep to just one scale, but you can do some pretty cool stuff by changing it every now and then (It's just harder to make it sound good. If you succeed it has a decent chance of sounding better than something going in a single scale though).



This one has quite a few key changes. Would require too much effort to find them all but there's one at least at 3:17. Pretty sure there's another one right after the intro but I haven't checked.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Yeah cos I attempt to also learn ways to play by myself and sound atmospheric, not just serving ready songs as a "required invisible element" all the time. And of course, ultimately it would be cool to be able to design songs with the bass.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Came across this about sound and lacquers:

"If you want to evaluate any musical device, don't look for special features, look for the absence of distortion mechanisms.
For any musical instrument: The absence of plastic lacquer is much more important than what kind of wood is used."

Dude claims he made a cheap ass guitar sound great by removing the lacquer. Well, I bet the selected breed of tree and it's individual quality together mean more than the finish. I read two articles on different lacquers, because I'd like my guitar to be as organic as possible, with just the wood in it's natural beautiful grain shapes and sexy feel, but I'm hesistant to start scraping away the finish as it seems the wood will become spoilt with no protective layer. One day I'll get a bass that looks woody as fuck, one I intend to play for like ever. The one I have is great for its price (it has trans black gloss finish btw) and can serve me for a long time, but if I progress to a worthy level then I'll purchase a dream instrument of course. I love the idea of the surface wearing out where the hand rests and moves, btw, it's this cool, almost romantic effect kinda like a black belt wearing out over time and becoming grayish white thus proving the master has been practicing for a long time - not that this means anything, but it gives a sense of street credibility, hehe.

 

[ESA1996]

Lol at the end

Never heard of someone claiming laquer to affect the sound more than the wood, though I seem to remember Ruokangas (A Finnish custom guitar company) talking about how thin their laquer layers are so I guess it does have some effect on the sound. If one wants to get into nifty details in a guitar, well, I actually want an aluminium guitar They weigh way too much but the sustain would be better than in any wooden guitar. Aluminium is also far more consistent throughout than any wood which would be another plus.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

But wood is magical, it's a (non)living product on mother earth. Just to think the sound goes thru that is epic.

Yeah I read the thinnest lacquers sprayed can be less than a human hair in thickness. Which sounds hard to believe.

What can I practice now??

 

[ESA1996]

Yeah, perhaps I should have said that I want to try an aluminium guitar.

Sounds ridiculously thin to me too.

You might want to try learning some songs from tabs that have really difficult parts in them to give you an idea of what you're not that good at yet (I learned Gentaro Satomura's Neoclassical Sweep for this exact reason (The video I posted earlier)). For bass that might be early Metallica as Cliff Burton who is always praised for having interesting bass lines or perhaps Burning Leaves by Ensiferum as it actually has a short bass solo in it.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I should get that tux guitar working then, somehow...Kinda afraid if I get a taste of tabs I will keep taking that detour again. I wanna learn to actually play and be a real bassist. Maybe I'll look for tabs on youtube.

Should I learn other scales as well, with the chords belonging in them? Or just stick with natural minor for a good while not to get too overwhelmed.

I suppose one very important thing is to practice ear. And try to figure song parts by ear. Technique in itself is easier on bass.

Just thinking. Root notes of chords on natural minor, with bass the only sensible way is to play roots from the lowest two strings, (and arguably from the first 12 frets) if the intention is to provide low end, right? So the only root notes useful would be B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A... E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D... overall 14 notes on the bass. Why play a root note higher than that? Maybe on some occasions, but mostly the root note stuff on bass and metal music is concerned on that region on the fretboard, I'd imagine...

So should I maybe start ear practicing those 7 lowest notes from the lowest two strings? And elsewhere too of course...

 

[ESA1996]

The bass often imitates the guitar so if the guitar is playing something like this...

--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
--------------------
5-7-7-7-5-7-7-7-
--------------------

...then the bass will very likely be playing something like this...

---------------------
---------------------
5-7-7-7-5-7-7-7-
---------------------

...instead of this:

--------------------
--------------------
5--------5---------
--0-0-0---0-0-0-


You are mostly correct though. Something like this...

---------------------
---------------------
-----4---5---4---2--------2---------
2-2---2---2---2---5-4-5---5-4-0-

...will most definitely be played like that instead of this:

------------------------------------------------------
-----11----12---11----9--------------9------------
9-9-----9-----9-----9----12-11-12----12-11-7-
------------------------------------------------------

Basically play everything from as low as possible as long as the pattern makes sense. When playing riffs you usually play the same stuff as the guitar so you don't really need to think about whether or not it makes sense (If the guitar plays it, it makes sense, at least in the mind of the composer), but when playing the root notes of chords you usually want to stay as close as possible to the "root chord" of the scale you are playing in.

Example:

-------------------
-------------------
7---5---3---5---
-------------------

...instead of...

-----------------
-----------------
---5---3---5---
0---------------

...and...

--------------------
---------------------
7---12---10---5----
---------------------

...instead of...

-------------------
-------------------
--------------5---
0---5---3---------

etc.


As for scales? B minor is a good one to practice. E minor is probably the second most used scale in B tuning. All in all though, when you know one minor, you can transpose it relatively well all over the fret board without too much trouble so, if learning a song by ear, though you do need to recognize which minor the song goes in, you don't necessarily need to know said minor by heart to be able to play as you can just transpose B minor, which you already know, up or down the required number of frets. It isn't as easy as playing in B minor of course, but once you get good at identifying the notes in a minor scale based on location in relation to the root note instead of just "The third fret of the B string belongs to B minor. The 4th does not. The 5th does etc." things get a lot easier as you just need to keep in mind where the root is to be able to play around it.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

Yes, like if you try to get to play with others and you only learned one scale and corresponding chords, you're in trouble, have to start all over again building nervous system, visual memory and aural memory for new scale figure and chord shapes and positions... Am I mistaken that what makes it tricky to just transpose the scale in your mind is the thing about E to F and B to C, needing to know when a note is on which side?

Trying to find good ways to practice ear. Like the ability to tell which note is being played under the muddy mess. I know I can mistake a note by as much as about four half steps. Then again it's also about understanding which instrument to listen to.

About humming notes from music. Just how much of necessity is it. Isn't the idea of humming to make it more clear to yourself what pitch you are hearing in your head when you playback a section of a song in your mind. That the mind can delude you to jump many notes in inaccuracy.

I'm really eking out every bit of sense from my capacity trying to explain this.

 

[ESA1996]

Yes, like if you try to get to play with others and you only learned one scale and corresponding chords, you're in trouble, have to start all over again building nervous system, visual memory and aural memory for new scale figure and chord shapes and positions... Am I mistaken that what makes it tricky to just transpose the scale in your mind is the thing about E to F and B to C, needing to know when a note is on which side?

Trying to find good ways to practice ear. Like the ability to tell which note is being played under the muddy mess. I know I can mistake a note by as much as about four half steps. Then again it's also about understanding which instrument to listen to.

About humming notes from music. Just how much of necessity is it. Isn't the idea of humming to make it more clear to yourself what pitch you are hearing in your head when you playback a section of a song in your mind. That the mind can delude you to jump many notes in inaccuracy.

I'm really eking out every bit of sense from my capacity trying to explain this.

Not exactly sure I understood you first question correctly but the lack of notes between E and F, B and C makes writing music harder when switching keys, but it doesn't really affect guitar / bass (It affects the piano though). Transposing scales is easiest when you just find yourself the root note of the chord and use it as a reference note. You can then go ahead an just count "Okay, this is the 4th note up a minor scale from my reference note, the 4th chord of a minor is a minor chord, let's play a minor chord". Of course some scales are easier to just memorize, for example, when you know B minor you can learn E minor really easily as the only difference is that B minor has a C# in it and E minor has a C in it.

Mistaking notes is very easy. The distance isn't everything in this however. It's easier to mistake a E for a B than for an F though F is far closer. Why? B and E sound very good and pure together as they form a perfect 5th, the least dissonant interval not counting octaves. E and F on the other hand form a minor second which sounds pretty awful and is very dissonant.

Humming can work for exactly what you describe though I have rarely used it. I might actually have to try doing it a bit more. I've never though about using it for learning songs by ear. I've only used it a few times when I've had a melody in my head and I've then wanted to get it tabbed out on a guitar.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

I'm afraid if I start humming my neighbours will think I'm doing a buddhist mantra or drooling on some toxic trance behind the wall. Not sure tho if one can search for the right notes from the mind easier from the fretboard or by humming...?

Yeah, sometimes I can't figure if the right note is this or that even tho they're far apart, but one note closer might sound very wrong despite being closer, so I guess it's about the dissonance and not fitting together with the scale.

 

[ESA1996]

I'm afraid if I start humming my neighbours will think I'm doing a buddhist mantra or drooling on some toxic trance behind the wall. Not sure tho if one can search for the right notes from the mind easier from the fretboard or by humming...?

Yeah, sometimes I can't figure if the right note is this or that even tho they're far apart, but one note closer might sound very wrong despite being closer, so I guess it's about the dissonance and not fitting together with the scale.

I'd say it's easier to first hum a melody and then match what you're playing to that than straight up trying to play what you hear in your head. Might be just me though.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

One thing I notice is...

Most of bassists who try some improvising solo shit sound absolutely uninspired, melodiless and bland, just slapping and popping all kinds of stupid noises, just chaos.

Then I find some individuals presenting an atmospheric solo, with emotion. Usually downright depressing emotion, but sometimes happy or even mysterious.

I'm thinking what the fuck to practice, maybe one thing could be just trying to come up with atmospheric stuff from the scale I'm using, possibly even doing things inside chords. As you might probably know I'm more of a atmosphere guy instead of technique guy when it comes to music. So at this point I approach the idea of personal style as emotional, not technical.

Maybe one finds his personal emotion? Or can one do different emotions?

Usually shit I've come up with is mysterious, beautiful but depressive as fuck, like it makes even myself feel horrible, but I still haven't figured my true voice when it comes to that.