Let's make me a good bassist... tips?

Tried The 69 Eyes - Angels, not having heard it for ten years, but my goodness that album was so gay I had to stop. This band really took a downward dive after the Devils album which was good.

Played over The Birthday Massacre - Nothing & Nowhere, which is one of my favourite albums, (it sounds magically like the music is coming from your past that's so distant it's become dark... very distinct atmosphere) I couldn't even hear the bass or make much out of it.

Just now played Arch Enemy - Doomsday Machine, and that was super good when I figured everything sounds sonically fluent in harmonic or natural minor scale, so I tried finding stuff visualizing the scale. Like yesterday with the Cradle album. If you know the scale in which to play, and know the scale, you'll at least sound close enough to be forgiven.
 
Today played over Cradle of Filth - Nymphetamine, clearly the best practice so far. They play in harmonic minor and this album has nicely flowing riffs and crispy sound. It feels amazing when hitting the right notes, which increased thorough the album once I gained a feeling for it.
 
Today played over Cradle of Filth - Nymphetamine, clearly the best practice so far. They play in harmonic minor and this album has nicely flowing riffs and crispy sound. It feels amazing when hitting the right notes, which increased thorough the album once I gained a feeling for it.
It's pretty cool when you get stuff right yeah. Also helps when you get a "feel" for a certain band as many bands tend to use the same scales for most of their songs.
 
Played a few more Cradle albums. Some of them are very good for bass learning, some are kinda high pitch focused like Cruelty and the Beast, where you can't hear bass. So high notes you don't even have them on your bass to use them as clue to figure what notes are being played... but one has to develop sensitivity to pitch I suppose. Today I did Nevermore - This Godless Endeavor, and it was surprisingly good for learning bass.

Also today I rose to a new level when it comes to standing positions and how to change them depending where you're playing on the fretboard. And I learned to tremo fast with the doublebass. Felt better than ever.
 
I should get that tux guitar working then, somehow...Kinda afraid if I get a taste of tabs I will keep taking that detour again. I wanna learn to actually play and be a real bassist. Maybe I'll look for tabs on youtube.

Should I learn other scales as well, with the chords belonging in them? Or just stick with natural minor for a good while not to get too overwhelmed.

I suppose one very important thing is to practice ear. And try to figure song parts by ear. Technique in itself is easier on bass.

Just thinking. Root notes of chords on natural minor, with bass the only sensible way is to play roots from the lowest two strings, (and arguably from the first 12 frets) if the intention is to provide low end, right? So the only root notes useful would be B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A... E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D... overall 14 notes on the bass. Why play a root note higher than that? Maybe on some occasions, but mostly the root note stuff on bass and metal music is concerned on that region on the fretboard, I'd imagine...

So should I maybe start ear practicing those 7 lowest notes from the lowest two strings? And elsewhere too of course...

It's okay to want to learn other songs, and it's going to be good for you as well, but what it really comes down to is making sure you have efficient practice sessions. Do your normal exercises for an hour or two and then use an hour for recreation (improvisation or playing other songs)
 
It's okay to want to learn other songs, and it's going to be good for you as well, but what it really comes down to is making sure you have efficient practice sessions. Do your normal exercises for an hour or two and then use an hour for recreation (improvisation or playing other songs)

I've found it very enriching to try to play over albums. Training the ear to recognize notes is one of the abysmal challenges of bass. Then, the fundamental thing is to get some kind of grasp on what to practice. I've toyed with the natural and harmonic minor scales in B tuning, I've toyed with the chords in natural minor tuning, yesterday I started getting into modes, but that's it really. Now I need to figure how to proceed.
 
One thing I've experienced when playing over albums is at some point when I start to feel the music, listen to it and try to grasp what's being played, I know I'm doing something right when I "get lost in the music." It's like I silence my mind from everything else and just try to melt my playing to fit what I hear. Suddenly I hear less and less dissonance. Still not sure most of time if the note is correct, but at least it comes closer.
 
I just tested and I really can't see different colours in notes! Just when changing pitch! Usually I see music itself as colour, but not individual notes. For me the colours just go from hot to cold as in low to high throughout the whole pitch level, but not cycling over octaves... I believe if I've heard piano when in womb I should have potential for perfect pitch, but it's clear even my relative pitch sometimes sucks! But then, when playing CD, this sounds weird but I can sometimes sense exactly what note is coming next, without remembering the song. At least I can figure shit out decently when playing over a song. Of course with bass you just play one note at a time and it's so low pitch it's kinda forgiving. But with certain music like Cradle of Filth I seem to be in my element.
 
But then, when playing CD, this sounds weird but I can sometimes sense exactly what note is coming next, without remembering the song.
AFAIK this is pretty common among people who have played/listened to a lot of music. Certain melodies are just destined to go to a certain note and you can hear the note coming before it does. Occasionally composers play around with this and put a different note to the one that one would expect. Sometimes this works great and creates some interesting stuff in songs, other times it just doesn't work and you will forever be annoyed at the part of the song that doesn't go "as it should".



1:21 one is the worst example I can think of a melody not going where it should. It's clearly intentional as it goes "right" at 2:47 but I still get annoyed whenever listening to it.

Something I've occasionally wondered is that how different are these "projected notes" between people?
 
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Why that 1:31 - section in that song reminds me of the chorus in this song:



I'm sorry tho this pop shit sounds so gay my eyes hurt!



Actually tho, I didn't even mean melodies, but quiet sections in songs, where you totally have to guess what comes next. And often I've picked just the right note with intuition, on Cradle of Filth albums.

And yeah, sucks when you know better than the artist how some melody is supposed to go, instead of delivering an eargasm it ventures down the fucking cliff.
 
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About modes...

How are the mixolydians etc named when I'm tuned to BEAD and play harmonic minor scale?

And since there's one name for each of the seven modes (notes) contained in the scale, can I play a mode starting on say C# starting from any place with C# and it's still got the same name? In other words can I play a mode starting from any spot on the fretboard where the starting note appears?

Every instructor just assumes you're tuned to E and only play major scale (makes me feel like my musical soul has chosen the Dark Side). Yeah the bass sounds pretty in E tuning, but in metal you could actually survive with just the lowest 2 strings up until 12th fret... I try to play from elsewhere as much as sonically coherent and artistically at place, but practically that's all for jazz and stuff...
 
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About modes...

How are the mixolydians etc named when I'm tuned to BEAD and play harmonic minor scale?

And since there's one name for each of the seven modes (notes) contained in the scale, can I play a mode starting on say C# starting from any place with C# and it's still got the same name? In other words can I play a mode starting from any spot on the fretboard where the starting note appears?

Every instructor just assumes you're tuned to E and only play major scale (makes me feel like my musical soul has chosen the Dark Side). Yeah the bass sounds pretty in E tuning, but in metal you could actually survive with just the lowest 2 strings up until 12th fret... I try to play from elsewhere as much as sonically coherent and artistically at place, but practically that's all for jazz and stuff...

Normal modes go like this:

Major / Ionian
Dorian
Phygrian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Minor / Aeolian
Locrian

Harmonic modes go like this:

Harmonic Minor
Locrian #6
Ionian #5
Dorian #4
Phygrian Dominant
Lydian #2
Superlocrian

(I actually had to look that one up :D)

Anyway, as you can see only three of the harmonic modes are actually named. The rest are just descriptions of how they differ from their natural counterparts. Worth noting that superlocrian is actually the harmonic version of mixolydian, not locrian.

Identifying scales

Identifying a scale is done by looking at the notes it contains. This leaves a problem however. A scale with the notes of B C# D E F# A can be any of the 7 modes of B minor. Finding the root chord will tell you which one it is.

Root chord

Root chord is not an official term AFAIK. Ensimmäisen asteen sointu is what it's called in Finnish. Similar to notes, chords are named with numbers. You have E, the 4th note of B minor, which is called a 4th quite often as it's easier, when switching scales, to find the right note based on a number than a letter. Chords use a similar system. The first chord of B minor is the I chord, the 4th chord is the IV chord and the 5th chord is the V chord. The I chord is the root chord.

How to identify the root chord?

Basic intuition will usually tell you which one it is but a good tip to finding it is that a song will almost always end in the root chord. It is also common for melodies to start with the root chord. The last melody note will also very likely be the root note of the scale the song goes in. This can help you identify whether a scale is, for example, B minor or D major.

Where can you play said D major then?

Anywhere with the notes of D major. As long as the chord progression under it maintains D major as the root chord, the scale will be D major too, no matter where you play it, even if you start a melody from, say, a G note which would, without the underlying chord progression, make the D major scale appear more like a G lydian.
 
Some more CD:s:

Cradle of Filth - Bitter Suites To Succubi
Cradle of Filth - Godspeed On the Devil's Thunder (awesome songs: Shat Out of Hell, Darkness Incarnate)
Moonspell - Darkness and Hope
Cradle of Filth - Damnation and a Day (awesome songs: Promise of Fever, Presents from the Poison-Hearted)
Nile - Annihilation of the Wicked (did this 2 times, it's exotic and brutal)
Dimmu Borgir - Mourning Palace (easiest album so far)
Arch Enemy - Rise of the Tyrant (there's a piece worth checking out in songs 2, 3 and 6)

So far Cradle is my favourite stuff to play on bass. I originally expected Hypocrisy to be the main thing, but... I will say more later when I play some of them, one album was impossible to understand bass wise, or just mixed inaudible, or maybe it's quite technical... (like Bodom, it would be impossible to play over Bodom without knowing the songs by ear in advance.) And Type O Negative, but I will spare them for a bit later after I've honed out my noobness.

What I notice in bands like Cradle and Arch Enemy is they seem to have a selected three notes in each song that are like the theme of that song and keep repeating quite a lot? I do get faster all the time picking up what the notes are.
 
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I've found it very enriching to try to play over albums. Training the ear to recognize notes is one of the abysmal challenges of bass. Then, the fundamental thing is to get some kind of grasp on what to practice. I've toyed with the natural and harmonic minor scales in B tuning, I've toyed with the chords in natural minor tuning, yesterday I started getting into modes, but that's it really. Now I need to figure how to proceed.

What I'm about to say please do not take offense to, but there really is no way to take short cuts with becoming a musician and it seems you don't really have a set routine in place or an organized way to practice. Yes, what you are doing is very helpful, but it is one of many, many aspects to playing an instrument. I won't try to say that any one thing is more important than another, but right now you seem to lack discipline which is very important when learning any thing. Yes, I understand that scales and things like that can become boring and it may seem useless for an instrument like bass, but I think it should still be approached the same way as any other instrument.

A good example for things to practice would be some of these things

- Time/Tempo - Different key signatures and how to properly play patterns of notes within each and being able to identify those patterns and signatures by name (triplets, waltz', etc). A huge majority of musicians in the making get stuck just noodling around the fretboard trying to stay in whatever key they're in at the time without really paying much mind to what is going on rhythmically.

- Inversions/Harmonies/Octaves - Take a part of a song or riff that you like and learn harmonies for it, or playing it in different positions. A good example of a band to do this with for harmonies is of course Iron Maiden. Be sure to really keep an eye on what is happening with each voice though as opposed to just committing the parts to muscle memory. Inversions are also great because it forces you to take a chord or something of that sort and approach it in a whole new way. Octaves are pretty straight forward, but still important I think.

- Right and Left hand dexterity - Practice each of these individually and together. Try to play strict legato with your left hand for a set period of time, but also try to do several picking patterns with your right hand in another set period of time. Finally, bring both hands together and try to articulate your notes as cleanly as possible with these techniques. With your left hand, be sure to also use different combinations of fingers for the same line for instance, this way you can have well developed strength no matter what combination of fingers you are forced to use.

Here is a video for guitar that helps a bit with the legato thing but this can very easily be applied to bass



Again, what you're doing with improvisation is great, but be sure to build yourself a routine. Make sure to set a schedule up for yourself where you are setting aside an allotted amount of time for each activity. Another important aspect is monitoring your progress somehow. Make sure to keep notes of how fast you can play something or recordings of how clean you are playing. This may seem arbitrary and pointless at first but it's the best way to see if you're progressing when you can compare your practices with older practice sessions.

Like I said, not trying to be harsh, just trying to give you some constructive criticism. Best of luck to you.
 
I try to find ways to practice different areas (such as the ones you mentioned - I'm looking into it) in a useful way, so I could develop a routine that actually benefits me. It feels like the challenge bigger than learning itself is actually understanding what to practice/learn. Trying to play over songs is just one nice form of practice, and in no way intentional to insult those who practiced till their fingers bled and grew cobweb in their hair before even imagining to be worthy of attempting to play over a section of a song.

What I notice when playing over a CD is it's difficult to perfectly do all these things simultaneously:

- figuring the notes that are being played by guitars and keyboards
- staying in rhythm with the drums
- playing fast
- playing clean
- maintaining movement instead of standing still, changing stance depending what's being played

My pattern of learning anything in life is: understanding what exactly you're doing, understanding the big picture (and your role in it), dividing everything to segments, then connecting the seams / understanding how they correlate.
 
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That's a good way of looking at it. There are a lot of exercises in the world of both bass and guitar that seem super tedious and pointless until you've gotten really good at them and then you start seeing those techniques flowing into various areas of your playing.
 
Great routine today... After playing over an album I sat down with 80 bpm metronome, went thru both the minor scales I know in every different way I could think of. Even spelling out the names of tones in modes while proceeding with only every second beat. Then I doubled speed in the 80 bpm going back and forth the fretboard in this X-motion, advancing one fret at a time (sweep picking), such as:

-1-------------4-2-------------5-3-------------6-----
---2---------3-----3---------4-----4---------5-------
-----3-----2---------4-----3---------5-----4---------
-------4-1-------------5-2-------------6-3-----------

Btw now I understand the reason why bass fretboard is easier to memorize than guitar is not just the fact it's got less strings, but because it's symmetrical, while the guitar has that one odd string due to the E-F / B-C rule which means one has to learn so frigging many shapes for the chords on guitar.

Yesterday I played over Behemoth - The Apostasy, couldn't tell much more than each song using one note more than others (is that what they call the key?)

Today played over Swallow the Sun - Emerald Forest and the Blackbird, obviously a dynamic and memorable album that covered the whole bass fretboard pretty much.
 
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