Metal and accessibility

[Thanatopsis123]

I've heard before in numerous places that anything of worth should be made accessible. This has been specifically stated for literature, mathematics, etc. So, of course, I thought about how this could apply to the extreme forms of metal. I can come to no real conclusion myself.

Here are a few questions to help us along with this discussion:

1) If metal were made more accessible, could it possibly retain its form, function, and integrity?

2) How could this transition occur?

3) Would it be a good thing if this happened? What benefits could there be? In other words, while we find metal worthwhile, would there be any point in this? Why pander to shallow listeners?

4) Is metal only as worthwhile for us, because it serves such a specific and personalized niche?

5) Doesn't this line of thought lead right back to our elitist tendencies?

 

[DeathBlade]

By accessible you mean mainstream? Like it would be on the radio and it would be popular?

1. Is it possible? Yes. Likely? Probably not. (something new would probably be invented then that would be like the metal of today)
2. Societies morals completely change. But if it did I don’t think there would be many "shallow" listeners.
3. Good thing? Depends. Benefits? Can go to any store and pick up what you want.
4.It may help, but I think that you either like metal or dislike it. It is somewhat of an acquired taste but overall I think that you will like it or hate it.
5. Pride (for what you like) isn’t always an elitist tendency.

In short I don’t think that metal (as we know it) will ever become mainstream for numerous reasons.
1. It is too brutal. We live in an age where you cant swear in public. Think of what would happen if someone turns on the TV and there is Vital Remains screaming "LET THE KILLING BEGIN!" or emperor is playing. Just thinking of what most parents would think... (I don’t think that how parents will think will change all that much either. Parents usually want what is best for their child, having them listen to songs about killing, evil, death etc isn’t what most parents want.)
2. Metal is looked at as "satanic' and "evil" "will make you love Satan." There are to many religious nuts in the world who think like this. No matter what the truth is they will not listen. Now granted metal can be satanic, evil, etc not all of is. But most people will not acknowledge this.
3. Just in general how society looks at metal. “Metal is for rejects.” “If you listen to metal you will kill people” “metal makes you commit suicide” etc etc. If society becomes a bit (read a lot) more open minded metal may become more accepted, and move more into the mainstream. But I don’t think it will ever replace a band such as green day or whatever the popular band is of today.
4. I don’t think that most mainstream listeners can like metal. As I said before I think that most people will either like or hate metal. When you start to listen to metal it becomes almost a part of you. Most other types of music then become dull and repetitive and over all just don’t appeal to you any more. This is not always true as a lot of metal listeners also listen to other stuff, but not usually the mainstream stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of metal heads also enjoy classical music.

*note I am making general statements, not everyone is like this. Just overall what I think.

No I don’t think that metal will become mainstream. But should I be available to the masses? Yes it should be available to those who want it. As should all forms of media. People just have the right to choose what they want to see/hear/think.
If all that appeals to us about metal is that is underground (and fills a niche thing etc) then why don’t we all enjoy the most underground black metal? Or even more underground something like polka (show me a polka scene and I will show you something underground (and a real special niche :Spin: ).
As for metals elitist tendencies. There are some elitist tendencies but I think that over all we just want metal to stay good. Who wants something they like to turn horrible and dull? We defend what is important to us. It can be easy to confuse elitist tendencies with pride. Pride isn’t always bad.

Ehh I guess that is it. Sorry for the rant (you can blame having a 40 oz of coffee.

 

[genocide roach]

many people like the idea that metal is underground and the masses dont know about it. to me it seems extremly elitist and makes me think they only listen to metal to make themselves feel special and better than everyone else. these are the same people that think headbangers ball shouldnt play extreme metal for fear of ruining the band.

with that said, id say this it really is accessible, you just gotta know where to look. like with most styles of music, you gotta be introduced to it somehow, usually by friends or whatever. and i think that works fine. you really dont need anything else. there is allready plenty of places to find out information. some pretty big labels, record shops handin out promos, local shows, word of mouth, a shitload of websites.

now ofcourse more promotion is always better. i certainly think that mtv playin nile, dimmu, carcass, morbid angel, etc. is not a bad thing. no one is gonna change the sound of those bands, whether you want to believe that or not is up to yall.

that seemed to sorta ramble, but i think there is a point in there somewhere
~gR~

 

[the phoenix]

Much of the underground scene simply produces better music than the mainstream stuff. This can be extended to many other aspects of world affairs (as you point out)--economics, philosophy, religion, government, etc. Most people are ignorant towards the real truth of a given subject matter precisely because of its lack of accessibility, and they opt to believe something that better suits their fraudulent views.

Thus, I think the question of making extreme metal more accessible is backwards. Of course it shouldn't be made more accessible, since that necessitates the lowering of its quality; dumbing it down for the masses, if you will. I'd suggest that we strive to elevate people's thinking to the point where they're able to access extreme ideas. Instead of fixing the music, fix the people, since the problem lies within the latter and not the former. On a broader, global scale, this line of thinking deserves much attention, IMO.

 

[mrweijia]

I've heard before in numerous places that anything of worth should be made accessible. This has been specifically stated for literature, mathematics, etc. So, of course, I thought about how this could apply to the extreme forms of metal. I can come to no real conclusion myself.

Hahahahaha, I guess many metal bands don't think Canada is of any value.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

many people like the idea that metal is underground and the masses dont know about it. to me it seems extremly elitist

Metal fans mainly like metal to be underground because when a band is underground, it is more true to itself as an entity, and more true to its fans. When a band gains popularity, money is substituted for artistic integrity. This proves that metal is an artform. Metal should not be widely known. End discussion.

This can be extended to many other aspects of world affairs (as you point out)--economics, philosophy, religion, government, etc.

Completely true. This can be exemplified by the lack of intelligence and overall integrity of "mainstream" (read: stereotyped) Christians. Most Christians are typified as brainless/mindless people who worship an unseen god for their own good, no matter what it does for others (in other words, they're seen as selfish). This type of "Christianity" is shunned and looked down upon by actual Christians who follow Christ's word as it was written and seperate themselves from the Church in order to attain spiritual divinity (because today's "Church" is actually just a money-whoring political beehive).

 

[Life Sucks]

I don't think that extreme metal can ever really be made accessible. However, some of the lighter genres can, for better or for worse.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Power metal being popular...*imagines people dressing up in full plate armor and walking around like that daily as a style*

 

[Thanatopsis123]

Well this thread isn't going quite where I wanted it to but I suppose I didn't explain well enough.

Though I do find it interesting that everyone assumes that something accessible cannot be intelligent or artful.

 

[genocide roach]

Metal fans mainly like metal to be underground because when a band is underground, it is more true to itself as an entity, and more true to its fans. When a band gains popularity, money is substituted for artistic integrity. This proves that metal is an artform. Metal should not be widely known. End discussion.

that isnt always true. youre generalizing. its absurd to think that just because a band gets attention they will substitute money for quality. did morbid angel change their sound to gain more attention? no, they got attention from the get go. how bout slayer?

just some food for thought.
~gR~

 

[the phoenix]

"Though I do find it interesting that everyone assumes that something accessible cannot be intelligent or artful."

"that isnt always true. youre generalizing. its absurd to think that just because a band gets attention they will substitute money for quality."

Of course accessibility doesn't implicitly entail degredation of quality. However, it usually does, if we accept a few basic premises.

1) Art is the manifestation of a metaphysical concept which cannot easily be expressed externally (ie via external media such as music).
2) To like a piece of music, you must be in agreement with, or at least have a sound understanding of (and respect for) the underlying metaphysical concept.
3) Most people are ignorant with regards to these fundamental metaphysical concepts. All they know is what the superficial, trivial society in which they live feeds them.

Thus, the masses, being unable to understand the concepts behind extreme metal (and other forms of extreme thinking), will be equally unable to appreciate extreme metal (and other forms of extreme thinking). In some cases, the general public do have the right understanding of a concept, in which case art relating to that concept can be both accessible and intelligent. Conversely, just because something is underground does by no means mean that it's intelligent. But that which is intelligent is, more often than not, for the above reason, underground.

PS - It's funny that we have to call the right ways of thinking as being "extreme". They're only extreme because they are the minority and contrast so heavily with the norm. A sad state of affairs indeed. :/

 

[Flood]

I've heard before in numerous places that anything of worth should be made accessible. This has been specifically stated for literature, mathematics, etc. So, of course, I thought about how this could apply to the extreme forms of metal. I can come to no real conclusion myself.

Here are a few questions to help us along with this discussion:

1) If metal were made more accessible, could it possibly retain its form, function, and integrity?

2) How could this transition occur?

3) Would it be a good thing if this happened? What benefits could there be? In other words, while we find metal worthwhile, would there be any point in this? Why pander to shallow listeners?

4) Is metal only as worthwhile for us, because it serves such a specific and personalized niche?

5) Doesn't this line of thought lead right back to our elitist tendencies?

Let's see...for metal to be accessible by the massess, it obviously means the majority of people must like it, which probably should fit into the age range of 13-30. The marketing of today's society affects people from that age group the most. For bands to appeal to the crowd, they must in turn play music of the MASSES, meaning if by chance the musician has different interests/tastes, they must change it. That means it loses integrity right there, throwing #1 out the window.

Also, the age range of 13-30 includes lots of teeny bopping girls/boys. The extreme metal's lyrics and themes would be highly critisized among the media and therefore the soccer moms would get their panties in a bunch and forbid their children from listening to those awful anti-christian lyrics.

There is no place for metal in popular culture, and I'd prefer it that way. It gives me a sense of elitism and the i-know-i'm-better-than-you attitude just because I listen to metal.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

that isnt always true. youre generalizing. its absurd to think that just because a band gets attention they will substitute money for quality. did morbid angel change their sound to gain more attention? no, they got attention from the get go. how bout slayer?

just some food for thought.
~gR~

Slayer did, didn't they?

 

[Caelum Adustum]

The Phoenix and V.V.V.V.V. got it.

 

[AjDeath]

The Phoenix and V.V.V.V.V. got it.

.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I hate to admit that metal gives me an edge over "less knowledgable" people (in the world of music, at least), but it gives me an unseen pleasure to know that I know a TON more bands than my classmates and friends. Just a thought...

 

[Flood]

I hate to admit that metal gives me an edge over "less knowledgable" people (in the world of music, at least), but it gives me an unseen pleasure to know that I know a TON more bands than my classmates and friends. Just a thought...

Yes, I just snicker in my head sometimes when I hear people talk about how hardcore and heavy Linkin Park is. Or how Marilyn Manson is sooo extreme. I don't know why something as trivial as musical taste generates so much interest/conflict.

In the early stages of the USA, people were much more politically involved. There were heated arguments about their beliefs and such, nowadays about half the eligible voters vote in the elections. I've seen more musical debates than political ones, and that's pretty pathetic.

 

[MasterOLightning]

I think for metal to be accessible, it's going to need a celebrity. For example, Kurt Cobain and the whole grunge wave of the early nineties. If someone can put together something retaining most metal elements, but maybe losing any very dark lyrical themes, and possibly harsh vocals, a hit song or two could lead to a boom in popularity. What will need to happen is for metal to become synonymous with some popular, charismatic figure. The figure has to captivate the masses in some way and be someone who they can relate to. The music must capture a certain feeling or emotion or tone. If it strikes the right chord with people, they'll be more willing to open up, but perhaps only to a narrow understanding of metal. Some people really aren't just meant to be big music fans, and nothing will drive them wild. Others might take a lot of interest. For metal to be more accessible, I think having some celebrity aspect might go a long way. It seems like Chuck Schuldiner could have filled this role brilliantly, but he just didn't catch on. I think with the growing success of metalcore, which will replace nu-metal in a matter of time, it's possible that a metalcore or melodeath band could reach mainstream success. It seems like these bands can get promoted pretty well by labels, and I think there's a chance in the next few years that some sub-genres of metal could really take off. Of course this would lead to some overpromotion of crappy bands, and a saturation of knock-off bands would water down the genre, as labels try to find the next best thing.

Personally I have a hard time deciding if I want metal to be popular, because I like having something that's mine, that I only share with maybe 1% of people. On the other hand, I would love to see some of my favorite bands become phenomenally popular. I'd love to see metal festivals, and massive tours, and big album releases. But popular groups have lots of idiot fans. Even a lot of metal bands have ignorant fan bases to begin with. I don't know... It's hard to imagine everything that would happen if metal made it big. There are a lot of pros and cons.

 

[Caelum Adustum]

I think there are no pros with metal becoming more popular.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I think there are no pros with metal becoming more popular.

On the contrary, there are only pros.

Thus, I think the question of making extreme metal more accessible is backwards. Of course it shouldn't be made more accessible, since that necessitates the lowering of its quality; dumbing it down for the masses, if you will. I'd suggest that we strive to elevate people's thinking to the point where they're able to access extreme ideas. Instead of fixing the music, fix the people, since the problem lies within the latter and not the former. On a broader, global scale, this line of thinking deserves much attention, IMO.

There's just one pro. Metal elevates thinking. It would do good to popularize metal because it would elevate the general state of thinking. Not all people are closed-minded. All of my friends over many years have gained an appreciation for what metal has to offer through me and my constant peddling of it to them. They don't have to like it or accept metal's ideas and thinking, but they have elevated their thinking to be able to understand, synthesize, and accurately judge metal. None of the metal bands were 'dumbed down' for this to occur.

Metal music should not be pandered to the tastes of the 'teeny-boppers' or whatever it is they're referred to as. They should be slowly weaned of their ignorance and trained to appreciate metal over time. In that respect, metal should be made more accessible. Don't lower the quality of the music. Use other methods to open up the minds of listeners.

Metal fans mainly like metal to be underground because when a band is underground, it is more true to itself as an entity, and more true to its fans. When a band gains popularity, money is substituted for artistic integrity. This proves that metal is an artform. Metal should not be widely known.

This does not happen all the time.

I don't think that extreme metal can ever really be made accessible.

I disagree. I think it can. However, I maintain the point that accessibility has nothing to do with artistic integrity. See: Led Zeppelin.

There is no place for metal in popular culture, and I'd prefer it that way. It gives me a sense of elitism and the i-know-i'm-better-than-you attitude just because I listen to metal.

If that was sarcasm, it's old. If that was serious, kill yourself.