Nazism and Asatru

[Belgar]

Agnostic for me, counting some of your guys requirements to be a member of any certain pagan religion, you have to know your heritage...something in which many people (including myself) are not able to find out.

Finally someone I can agree with ... I can say that some here have views and opinions that are typical of rebelious teenagers where "being" viking and such is the thing to be in right now.
I would like to see the same posters 10 years from now.
At least, I repect your opinion and honesty.

 

[Thrymfal]

Fair enough, but then again, how many of us have religious experiences (NOT under the influence of drugs)?

what's wrong with under the influence of drugs? the ancient peoples of south america, mexico, and the american southwest have used hallucinogenic mushrooms, leaves, and cacti in their rituals for thousands of years. besides, if you're tripping balls, god might actually say something back.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

That's great, whatever floats your boat and all that, but I consider it 'cheating' if you know what I mean.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

mate, 1st of all i didnt offended you... if you don't know how to talk with diplomacy then you are a total failure in what regards discussions.... 2nd read your post again and you will find somewhere where you accuse me of being me myself a racist...its very clear... 3rd if there was any misconcept i apologise myself, but i acted according to what you've written.... 4th lets give an end to this hot argument before someone gets hurt....lol jokin... seriously, there is no need to put this argument as if it was a declaration of war.... at least there's no need to... 5th try to be more clear when you write!

Merry Yule mate ;-)

and btw... yeah im concerned of the fact that immigrants will invade us all... only if we would stay relaxed over a sofa drinking some Martini and try to forget the problem.... we should be democratic and help deomcracy to work... solving such problem is not easy and it will take time to solve it out... but only with the aid of every single citizen in Malta... unfortunately due to fact that we're only a democracy, a republic and indipendent only a few years ( ranging from 50 - 100 years maximum) we are still immature and do not admire the benefits of democracy and indipendence... in fact the last one has been spit to by the maltese citizens when they voted YES to EU... now a days malta has various problems because much of us were to lazy to protect democracy - which is a living thing - from the continuous attack of the anti-democratic movements such as monopoly and other factors.... such has revealed to have a devastating effect over us all.... immigrants which in turns give rise to extremeism which give rise to tension and anger and so on. and is nazis are scared for their future and their childrens future they would not teach how to murder and to hate for shit reasons enhancing more social problems and non-sense tension in their children... real parents would take care of what to learn their children... the reality is that they are to fanatics of genocides and do not use their heads to solve problems but to promote them because if they would like to solve problems they could demostrate such in roads and pressurise the government... and if possible with the aid of the media.... something which will be of a great threat for the government

"You're scared of being thought of as a nazi because you're "pagan". everyone is scared. don't give me that bullshit". - Celtik Militia

yeah surely im scared (and i am pagan... it doesn't mean that i need to be a german or from the north to be so....even wiccans are pagans...and they are scattered all over the world dumbass lol)... but i do my best to be reasonable... its difficult i admit it... but i have to try, coz i recognize racism is bad.... the only thing that i close my eyes to is to christians... as i said - i can't supress my hate and anger towards those rubbish people... i prefer to mantain balance within myself then suppressing my feeling knowing that someday these feelings will arise.... but after all some christians deserve to die coz they've done too much harm.... for the rest (of christians), the suffocation of their religion is enough... an time will do that until christians will be tiny sects scattered troughout the world.

Merry Yule and may the Gods and Goddesses be with you throught your life, Celtik Militia ;-)

Perhaps you arte not very good at the English language, which is understandable as you are probably brought up with a Semitic one, but in all my wisdom, I believe it is you who are not very clear. Celtik only called you a hypocrite, and prejudice - never a racist (of course, why would he?) I think your main problem is your LACK of knowledge, not opinions. Maybe you should read up before you get into these sort of arguments.

 

[Ragnaroksprophet]

Nazism is psychopatic? mmmh... either you should study the basics of psychology, or you should check out nazism.

"bieng nazi shows how brainwashed you are.. coz that what they did in their time...".
How about today? is there nazi brainwashing today? No, today theres an opposed brainwashing, one of human rights, loving your neighbor, and being anti racist.
I'm not saying nazis today aren't brainwashed in some way, i'm saying that the fact they WERE brainwashed by the media over 50 years ago isn't a proof that they are brainwashed now. they are probably brainwashed by friends or something, not by mass media. The people who are the most brainwashed these days are guys like you, who try to look good and seem "mad" about racists by using caps although you know fuck all.



I find it normal that nazis who feel like being religious turn to asatru. Where else would they turn? Christianity? a semite religion? If i feel like critisizing religious nazis, it would be the christian nazis because thats totally idiotic. the first testiment is all about the burden of the poor jewish people. A nazi christian is a dumb ass. A nazi odinist or european pagan is much more comprehensible and normal.

I'm sorry that asatruars and other pagans are given a bad image, and looked upon as being nazis because neo nazis today use pagan symbols as well, but fucking live with it and stop being a cry baby. its not hard to explain that its a misconception. apolitic or commie skinheads have to explain they're not nazis as well. If you really don't want to be considered a nazi, do what these skinhead fags do : wear anti nazi patches to prove it and avoid getting your ass kicked.


i for my part, am not a nazi. Yet i am racially aware. For me, an asatruar who is a leftist dumb ass and who votes for mass immigration political parties is absolutely not at all conscient that he won't achieve his goal of bringing paganism back to europe if he accepts that millions and millions of muslim arabs and blacks come to his land.
Sure, fight christianity cause its "okay" to do so. The hypocrisy is that you don't do the same for islam. Christianity in europe has evolved, we don't get burnt for being pagan anymore. But the exponential islamisation of europe may bring to another "dark ages" through this intollerant and brutal religion that has not yet evolved like christianity has.
I am for racially oriented paganism.

PS: i know an enormous amount of nazi, fascist or nationalist people here (not just skinheads, most of these people are not skinheads... at least in France).
And i can tell you many of them are quite intelligent people, courageous and trustworthy. They all have their own story, their own thoughts. i respect them immensly.
But for the skinheads, let us not forget that if they are true skinheads they are working class, they like drinking and fighting. Don't expect ALL of them to be intellectual geniuses. But now, you people are making a misconception as well... the misconception of saying that all nazis/fascists are dumbasses because you met a few skinheads... wow. talk about being hypocritical.

I agree one hundred percent. Well put.

 

[Bates]

Racially aware or culturally aware? Genetics do not a culture make.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Then what does?

 

[Bates]

Common behavior patterns, common reactions to events...
"... culture should be regarded as the set of distinctive spiritual, material, intellectual and emotional features of society or a social group, and that it encompasses, in addition to art and literature, lifestyles, ways of living together, value systems, traditions and beliefs".

Not to say that plenty of cultures aren't exclusively of one race or another, but that's a function of the culture, not the race.

 

[Celtik Militia]

mate, 1st of all i didnt offended you... if you don't know how to talk with diplomacy then you are a total failure in what regards discussions.... 2nd read your post again and you will find somewhere where you accuse me of being me myself a racist...its very clear... 3rd if there was any misconcept i apologise myself, but i acted according to what you've written.... 4th lets give an end to this hot argument before someone gets hurt....lol jokin... seriously, there is no need to put this argument as if it was a declaration of war.... at least there's no need to... 5th try to be more clear when you write!

Merry Yule mate ;-)

and btw... yeah im concerned of the fact that immigrants will invade us all... only if we would stay relaxed over a sofa drinking some Martini and try to forget the problem.... we should be democratic and help deomcracy to work... solving such problem is not easy and it will take time to solve it out... but only with the aid of every single citizen in Malta... unfortunately due to fact that we're only a democracy, a republic and indipendent only a few years ( ranging from 50 - 100 years maximum) we are still immature and do not admire the benefits of democracy and indipendence... in fact the last one has been spit to by the maltese citizens when they voted YES to EU... now a days malta has various problems because much of us were to lazy to protect democracy - which is a living thing - from the continuous attack of the anti-democratic movements such as monopoly and other factors.... such has revealed to have a devastating effect over us all.... immigrants which in turns give rise to extremeism which give rise to tension and anger and so on. and is nazis are scared for their future and their childrens future they would not teach how to murder and to hate for shit reasons enhancing more social problems and non-sense tension in their children... real parents would take care of what to learn their children... the reality is that they are to fanatics of genocides and do not use their heads to solve problems but to promote them because if they would like to solve problems they could demostrate such in roads and pressurise the government... and if possible with the aid of the media.... something which will be of a great threat for the government

"You're scared of being thought of as a nazi because you're "pagan". everyone is scared. don't give me that bullshit". - Celtik Militia

yeah surely im scared (and i am pagan... it doesn't mean that i need to be a german or from the north to be so....even wiccans are pagans...and they are scattered all over the world dumbass lol)... but i do my best to be reasonable... its difficult i admit it... but i have to try, coz i recognize racism is bad.... the only thing that i close my eyes to is to christians... as i said - i can't supress my hate and anger towards those rubbish people... i prefer to mantain balance within myself then suppressing my feeling knowing that someday these feelings will arise.... but after all some christians deserve to die coz they've done too much harm.... for the rest (of christians), the suffocation of their religion is enough... an time will do that until christians will be tiny sects scattered troughout the world.

Merry Yule and may the Gods and Goddesses be with you throught your life, Celtik Militia ;-)

Yeah.. mmmh, i have difficulty understanding how you can think i called you a racist in any of my posts... but please, quote me to explain because i'm confused, and anyway, i don't see how it would have helped my argument to call you a racist.
And France being part of different european unions and being democratic for the past 50 years give the results we have now (=6million muslims which is probably over 10 times the population of Malta... to give you an idea. and thats without counting the other allogenes who arent muslims. These people cannot be converted to Asatru because they rarely give a flying fuck about european ancestral culture, and thats normal because they're not concerned. Asatru is a fucking joke if it doesnt consider these facts.)

"and i am pagan... it doesn't mean that i need to be a german or from the north to be so....even wiccans are pagans...and they are scattered all over the world dumbass lol"
-Bloodland

Hey dude, did i say anyone needed to be german to be pagan? no i didn't. Don't try to teach me anything because i probably know more about paganism then you do. norse, celtic and greeko roman mythology have been a past time of mine for many years. i study greeko-roman mythology for my major. I study prehistoric religious symbols (like the prehistoric "Venus" taken back by the wiccans... by the way, Wicca is a joke invented by some guy in the early 1900s.. he took some true pagan cults from all around the world and claimed he was taught the ancient prehistoric european paganism by this old lady..).
please quote me saying that only someone who is germanic can be pagan before calling me a dumbass.

You're maltese, perhaps you should consider phoenician-paganism (thats some calf worship for you) or roman paganism if you absolutely want to be pagan. Thats your ancestral culture, stick to it. other pagan religions are just as cool as norse paganism and often more documented.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Well actually the people of Europe never voted for mass immigtration, normalisation of various sexual perversions or the 'liberation' of women.

Bates, why should we rule out the possibility of genetics being a factor of culture, especially now since we're learning more and more about how much it determines human behaviour - or the fact new there are new genetic 'inputs' making us evolve constantly - thus the the possibility of cultures being a 'circle' if you get what I'm saying? Nature versus nurture.

 

[Bates]

You know, I can see your point of being anti-bandwagon. But "Thats your ancestral culture, stick to it." just... irks me. I'm pretty willing to bet a majority of people who practice pagan faiths were not born into a pagan culture. At least the older folks, anyway. Now, I could be wrong, and some of you could've been born into families that had kept the old faith alive for the past millennium or so. Lucky you. Most of the rest of the people had to rediscover it for themselves. Aren't you the one who keeps bringing up the re-paganization of Europe? Good luck with that, if only those of Germanic/Celtic descent are welcome. It's worked real well every other time it's been tried.

 

[Bates]

Well actually the people of Europe never voted for mass immigtration, normalisation of various sexual perversions or the 'liberation' of women.

Bates, why should we rule out the possibility of genetics being a factor of culture, especially now since we're learning more and more about how much it determines human behaviour - or the fact new there are new genetic 'inputs' making us evolve constantly - thus the the possibility of cultures being a 'circle' if you get what I'm saying? Nature versus nurture.

I'll be honest, and say I've never seen a reasonable argument for a genetic basis for culture. Not saying it's not possible there is one, but I've yet to see it.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

What?? You don't like pretty girls worshipping you?? LOL.
I understand what you're saying. It's next to impossible to remove the philospohy from the religion and vice versa, though. I think what it boils down to in this case if whether or not you look at the faith the way some Christians do: everything in the Bible/myths is true, nothing is metaphor for anything and it all really happened, verbatim vs. some of the stuff may have happened but mostly the stories are metaphors for things to teach us an important lesson. Having said that, I so did not choose this religion - I actually loathe all that religion stands for because it is used as a political tool continously and because I am a damn archaeologist. However, these are the gods and goddesses that chose me. There's a fundamental difference, because in that context, I can totally understand why someone would be japanese and asatru. It'd seem weird to me, yes, but who am I to judge who has what religious experience? That's what gods are for.

I understand being chosen, but following a religion that your ancestors didnt follow by choice is a little odd.
hey, I'd love to be chosen, but that hasnt happened.
I sure wouldnt take the myths as being true.
Do you believe Ragnarok is true? it just seems so christianized to me.


and no one should have respect for Islam, or christianity.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

But surely there is more to culture than "I believe in God/Odin/whatever." It's a set of attitudes that have given rise to norms and habits. I'm not telling anyone what to do, not yet at least, but some things go aginst my logic. I think this can often be attributed to trends, needing a sense of belonging and respect of that culture, but a lack of respect and interest for one's own. Like worshipping a another man's god or trying to change everything about one self to fit into foreign/alien ideas. Mind you, there is lots of paganism that has survived unnoticed after Christianisation of Scandinavia and Europe (I sound like Tyra haha). I've had the privilege of being brought up without 'official' religion - no baptizing or confirmation either - and thus been able to find my ideals mostly myself. But I've also inherited values that go beyond politics - in my case liberal/libertarian ones based on responsibility.

As for re-paganisation of Europe, I can't think of serious attempts ever been made, there was a window of opportunity in the last centurey, but other things interferred, as I am sure you are aware of. But please, give m,e the other examples that you had in mind.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

and no one should have respect for Islam, or christianity.

As there is little difference between them. One customised as to fit one people and the other for another people, then forced upon them by power-greedy maniacs, or welcomed by weaklings/idiots.

The true loosers are the ones who have nothing to do with eather one of them, like why should a aboriginee of Australia celebrate Christmas?

 

[Bates]

I'll be honest... I don't quite get why one would want to join a foreign religion, myself. Hell, I can't even bring myself to join any of the religions that are part of my heritage, even if I do respect some more then others. And I'm not aware of any real attempts at bringing back the old religions to Europe.

But, for me, what it comes down to, is that telling someone what they can't believe in is about the same as telling them what they have to believe in. And that just flies in the face of the things I do actually believe in. Fuck, it's harder to explain then I thought, unless I feel like writing a fucking novel (which I don't). Trust me, I have no problem with giving him shit about any of the other various things he ranted about, just fucking with someone's choice of beliefs doesn't sit well with me. I don't mind fucking with the beliefs themselves, mind you, but... yeah, I can't explain it really well. Perhaps if I had done something in Philosophy class besides making fun of the obvious bullshit, I would've learned something.

 

[TheLastWithPaganBlood]

Seems that we agree on that then. I'm saying I don't understand it, and I'm SAYING it,you know? Not holding it in to please anyone. Hell, I might even do someone a favour with my honesty.

 

[Bates]

Actually, I wasn't arguing with any of your points, except maybe on the sideline topics. It was one of Celtik's posts that got my back up, hehe. "Thats your ancestral culture, stick to it." It's not so much questioning his choice, so much as forcing it, if you take my meaning. Force feeding of beliefs pisses me off, no matter who's doing it, even if I agree with them. That might be a little bit more coherent then the ramble above.

 

[Tyra]

I understand being chosen, but following a religion that your ancestors didnt follow by choice is a little odd.
hey, I'd love to be chosen, but that hasnt happened.
I sure wouldnt take the myths as being true.
Do you believe Ragnarok is true? it just seems so christianized to me.


and no one should have respect for Islam, or christianity.

Me, personally? I think that some of what the myths contain are actaul things that happened - for example a people with male gods moving to another area where there were female gods, the two clashing and then melding - and then I think that some myths are just metaphors meant to explain lessons we need to learn - like even the greatest of us can know everything and one must be willing to sacrifice an awful lot to gain that which is truly precious and worth having.

In regards to Ragnarök - it depends on how you mean it. In as far as I can tell, the whole Ragnarök/end of the world/armageddon scenario is very typical for Indo-European religions in general. I do not think it is a Christian concept that has been taken up. What I do believe may possibly be a Christian concept that has made itself quite comfortable within asatru is the concept of Gimli and the creation of a new world after the falling of Yggdrasil. That part seems to have been added later than the rest.

I do believe the world will end and it will likely be because of us and the things we start. Again, I see it as a metaphor - Loki does stupid things without considering the consequences, and some of us know that it'll bring us all down, but what can we do but fight against it as best we can? I do not necessarily believe that Loki will come sailing in a ship made of old un-carefully discarded nail and hair clippings (but I still choose to honour my ancestors by not discardin hair and nail clippings in an un-careful manner. That goes to cleanliness, which we're also supposed to learn). I wish I could say that I thought that's how it will happen, because it'd be so nice to get to wake up one day and finally get my own back on all the bastards that have disrespected my ancestors and my kin etc. I would love to beat some of these assholes down and go out in a blaze of glory, and I would love to wake up in Asgard, but I really don't think we'll know for sure until we die. So, in the meantime, I will be content if I can live my life as an asatruar - with no regrets - honour my ancestors and my kin, so that those that come after me will remember my name. Then if I die and never wake up, that's OK, because my spirit still lives, and my energy is still here. I will also openly admit that this doesn't make sense in the context of the religious experiences I have had, which I really cannot explain. But that's my battle to fight, and my guess is that I am supposed to learn the answer in the end. I'll tell you when I get there, if ever.

 

[Tyra]

But surely there is more to culture than "I believe in God/Odin/whatever." It's a set of attitudes that have given rise to norms and habits. I'm not telling anyone what to do, not yet at least, but some things go aginst my logic. I think this can often be attributed to trends, needing a sense of belonging and respect of that culture, but a lack of respect and interest for one's own. Like worshipping a another man's god or trying to change everything about one self to fit into foreign/alien ideas. Mind you, there is lots of paganism that has survived unnoticed after Christianisation of Scandinavia and Europe (I sound like Tyra haha). I've had the privilege of being brought up without 'official' religion - no baptizing or confirmation either - and thus been able to find my ideals mostly myself. But I've also inherited values that go beyond politics - in my case liberal/libertarian ones based on responsibility.

As for re-paganisation of Europe, I can't think of serious attempts ever been made, there was a window of opportunity in the last centurey, but other things interferred, as I am sure you are aware of. But please, give m,e the other examples that you had in mind.

OK, I fully understand your point, but listen to this for one minute and try to grasp this very difficult concept because I know you are smart enough to get this, and I think you could come to a whole another form of clarity if you could get this coin to drop ( - that is a compliment, not sarcasm or whatever - I know it's really tricky, and it is really tricky to explain, and I know we've discussed it before, too): The reason why it is difficult for many "westeners" in general, but even more so for someone brought up in a Judeo-Christian environment, religious or not, is that in order to study the so called "nature religions" and pagan religions, you must move from your own linear concept of time (with a past, present and future) to a three dimensional concept of time. Linear time was inroduced to most of the areas where native religions ruled before with the arrival of Christianity. If you can make tha switch, you will find that you cannot study only one aspect of a culture. You must study all of it as a unit. Like you said "a set of attitudes that have given rise to norms and habits", only different, because the norms, habits and attitudes are so intertwined that they all must exist simultaneously to develop in any direction.

On re-paganisation: Iceland has not always allowed the old faith. They do now, though, as does Denmark, where it also wasn't a recognized religion until recently. Those are two of the countries that I can think of that have political parties tied to a pagan faith. Dunno how big they are, though. Wicca just gained offical status in Canada, but here, for obvious reasons, the old native religions are very much on the upswing, now that it's OK to be pagan w/o getting punished.