Nazism and Asatru

Alright, I've been able to follow you so far, but trying to figure out three dimensional time has broken my poor little brain. I'm going back to making loud noises and hitting things with rocks. :)
 
Bates said:
You know, I can see your point of being anti-bandwagon. But "Thats your ancestral culture, stick to it." just... irks me. I'm pretty willing to bet a majority of people who practice pagan faiths were not born into a pagan culture. At least the older folks, anyway. Now, I could be wrong, and some of you could've been born into families that had kept the old faith alive for the past millennium or so. Lucky you. Most of the rest of the people had to rediscover it for themselves. Aren't you the one who keeps bringing up the re-paganization of Europe? Good luck with that, if only those of Germanic/Celtic descent are welcome. It's worked real well every other time it's been tried.
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yeah, i know the "thats your ancestral culture, stick to it" might sound a little harsh to say. I said that for Bloodland cause he's quite an annoying little fellow.
I'm not gonna stop anyone from wanting to be pagan even if i find it ridiculous that someone follows another people's ancestral culture and religion. I don't comprehend that, just how i don't comprehend wiggers. To me its quite the same thing. But at least they are interested in paganism, perhaps later in their lives they'll want to check out their own ancestral religion and feel closer to it, instead of hailing viking myths cause its today's trend... and perhaps more accessible for people in the metal scene or something.
It wouldn't be surprising that if black metal had started in italy and we had "Roman metal", many people would hail Mars and the roman empire's fascistic and imperialistic grimness :p... instead of the dark northern "brutal" grimness.

and i never said only those of germanic and celtic descent are welcome to be pagan. all peoples were pagan, all peoples can be pagan. An italian can praise the roman pantheon, an irishman the celtic pantheon, a dutch the german pantheon, a polish the slavic pantheon...etc... we can all be pagan and still follow our own traditions instead of appropriating ourselves that of others.
 
Bates said:
Alright, I've been able to follow you so far, but trying to figure out three dimensional time has broken my poor little brain. I'm going back to making loud noises and hitting things with rocks. :)
Click to expand...

Dude, duct tape is a wonderful thing for things that don't want to stick together. If they stick but shouldn't, then WD40 is great. For poor little brains, duct tape, for sure. :kickass: Sorry, didn't mean to break it, hence the caveat. It's such a deep frigging concept that takes forever to figure out how to actually do if you don't live like that. So, before you read any farther, apply duct tape:

Try to think of it this way: In a nature religion, you are not just a bystander of nature (for example). You live in nature, you eat the things that it brings, you believe that all the energy or spirits from those that came before, but also those who came after live there. You have a relationship to upkeep with those spirits, which is why you cannot cut down plants and animals left, right and centre, and you have to tell the stories and also upkeep the burial site etc. So, in the long run, you are part of nature just as much as it is part of you, but also, your ancestors and those who come after are a part of your daily life. Example: Sexuality. Eroticism, lovemagic and love myths are a part of sexuality. Oftentimes, their purpose is to prepare a person for marriage. Marriage in itself is often a religious act, and married life is part of family life, the family in turn falls under the heading of the clan, which filters out into things like relations between the genders, how the ageing are cared for, how children are raised. All of those things combined form one cohesive unit that we as archaeologists refer to as one culture. Within such a culture with a threedimensional time frame, you can not only exist here and now, but really, since everything is here and now, you are within the past, the present and the future all at the same time, only you can vary the depth, the height and so on. But what you cannot do is remove one of those variables, such as faily, religion, sex or whatever, and study it or practise it on its own. That is because if you think of the threedimensional culture as a cube made of blocks, and you remove a bunch of blocks from somewhere in the middle of the cube, the whole thing implodes, right? You have to study it as a whole, with all the blocks in place. Hence we have to try to rely a bit on ethnoarchaeology to study the whole culture, or we can never understand it fully, since we as archaeologists more often than not find only bones and artefacts, i.e. two or three vaiables out of 1000 within the culture. You can try to practise only some of the aspects/blocks, such as the religion, but if you do that, oftentimes you miss the fundamental point of the religion, because things like symbolism and inflection etc can be so incredibly subtle.

If that didn't break your brain, nothing will.
 
Someone give me more infrmation on the Maltese being the 'potential' foundation of paganism in Europe....please?
 
i always wanted a tattoo of an odal rune on each shoulder blade with Munin & Hugin on each should with Yggdrisal in the middle of my back and odin & thor, so in other words a massive nordic mythology collage on my back. But i hate how the skinheads use the Odal Rune as one of their symbols, i dont beleive in that shit (nazism) so i'd hate for people to just assume that im a racist cunt if they see the odal rune on my back (which most people will because not many people have a clue of what norse mythology is all about and will just assume im a "nazi".

Anyway just thought i'd put my 2 cents into this thread.

P.S Anyone know of someone that could help me design that tattoo fully? i only have it imaged in my head.

Cheers.
 
Tyra said:
@Nightmare: The first goal of asatru is respect. The second is knowledge. The Germanic cultures existed long before Christianity ever reached that far north. There is nothing in any of the asatru myths or texts that I can personally think of that promotes "fight against Catholicism". If there had been, all those people would not have been converted.
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I don't speak expecially about people in Asatru, but a lot of practician of germanic religion hate Catholicism beacause they have the feeling that catholics people forced them to trust in theur god. But I don't see the link between germanic religion and hatred against Islam (like in some signatures).
 
Tyra said:
Dude, duct tape is a wonderful thing for things that don't want to stick together. If they stick but shouldn't, then WD40 is great. For poor little brains, duct tape, for sure. :kickass: Sorry, didn't mean to break it, hence the caveat. It's such a deep frigging concept that takes forever to figure out how to actually do if you don't live like that. So, before you read any farther, apply duct tape:

Try to think of it this way: In a nature religion, you are not just a bystander of nature (for example). You live in nature, you eat the things that it brings, you believe that all the energy or spirits from those that came before, but also those who came after live there. You have a relationship to upkeep with those spirits, which is why you cannot cut down plants and animals left, right and centre, and you have to tell the stories and also upkeep the burial site etc. So, in the long run, you are part of nature just as much as it is part of you, but also, your ancestors and those who come after are a part of your daily life. Example: Sexuality. Eroticism, lovemagic and love myths are a part of sexuality. Oftentimes, their purpose is to prepare a person for marriage. Marriage in itself is often a religious act, and married life is part of family life, the family in turn falls under the heading of the clan, which filters out into things like relations between the genders, how the ageing are cared for, how children are raised. All of those things combined form one cohesive unit that we as archaeologists refer to as one culture. Within such a culture with a threedimensional time frame, you can not only exist here and now, but really, since everything is here and now, you are within the past, the present and the future all at the same time, only you can vary the depth, the height and so on. But what you cannot do is remove one of those variables, such as faily, religion, sex or whatever, and study it or practise it on its own. That is because if you think of the threedimensional culture as a cube made of blocks, and you remove a bunch of blocks from somewhere in the middle of the cube, the whole thing implodes, right? You have to study it as a whole, with all the blocks in place. Hence we have to try to rely a bit on ethnoarchaeology to study the whole culture, or we can never understand it fully, since we as archaeologists more often than not find only bones and artefacts, i.e. two or three vaiables out of 1000 within the culture. You can try to practise only some of the aspects/blocks, such as the religion, but if you do that, oftentimes you miss the fundamental point of the religion, because things like symbolism and inflection etc can be so incredibly subtle.

If that didn't break your brain, nothing will.
Click to expand...

WHen I studied Greek tragedy I believe it was, we lookad at the 3D time frame, and I believe the example my teacher gave us was that of standing on a hill, overlooking a valley, seeing a caravan travelling from one edge to the other, but seeing every instance of their journey at the same time.

I think this is what I reffered to earlier as a 'circle'. Anyway, my question is: what happens if you not remove a piece of this system/circle/cube/culture, but add something which was never there? Do you understand? Like if you pur a piece from a totally different "cube" - will that not mess things up? It's like in movies where they time travel and change a tiny detail which has huge impact of the history of the world.
 
PaganThunder said:
P.S Anyone know of someone that could help me design that tattoo fully? i only have it imaged in my head.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Yes, any tattoo artist worth his or her salt. You go in, tell him what you want, bring sample pictures from the net or a book, tell him roughly what you have in mind. Then you let him draw something up, come back a few days later and actually get the work done if you like it.
 
TheLastWithPaganBlood said:
WHen I studied Greek tragedy I believe it was, we lookad at the 3D time frame, and I believe the example my teacher gave us was that of standing on a hill, overlooking a valley, seeing a caravan travelling from one edge to the other, but seeing every instance of their journey at the same time.

I think this is what I reffered to earlier as a 'circle'. Anyway, my question is: what happens if you not remove a piece of this system/circle/cube/culture, but add something which was never there? Do you understand? Like if you pur a piece from a totally different "cube" - will that not mess things up? It's like in movies where they time travel and change a tiny detail which has huge impact of the history of the world.
Click to expand...

Well, there really are three scenarios: You either add a block onto the already existing cube as it stands, and it just sits there on top of the rest, camel-backing the rest of the cube. This is how Christianity has worked in many cultures, and how Islam worked in Europe during the big spread in history - it's there, but it doesn't quite fit into the culture - it's a lump that's attached. Looks a bit like cancer, feels a lot like it, too. As soon as it's possible, you get rid of it.
Or you add a block, but to add it fully, you still have to pull out the pre-existing block - i.e. substitute one religion for the other - which causes the cube or part of the cube to implode before you can fully replace the old one. This causes the culture to disintigrate, after which you have to re-build the culture with new blocks that fit with the new religion-block. This is what happened to many of the North American aboriginal cultures, and many African and South American cultures with the arrival of Christianity.
Or you don't add a block, you add goop, just like how you add the filling in a muffin or a creampuff. You inject it slowly but surely through a very samll crack, and it fills out any empty spaces between all the other blocks. That's how old pagan religions work today when they are introduced to Judeo-Christian countries. If you add too much goop too fast you still end up with a busted cube (it explodes from internal pressure), so you have to work slowly and methodically so the goop spreads out evenly through out the whole cube.
There is always "something there", though. A culture is a complete unit, so anything new has to always fill out something already existing. If it's a new concept altogether, you're just adding to the cube in one of the above ways but w/o replacing anything. Cars were a new concept. They were added like goop in some countries (US) and like an add-on in others (Sweden).
 
I'd have to say... it's not a question of what will happen, but what is happening. Which, in my opinion, is a lot of the cubes, possibly all, fall apart, and we rebuild with what we have. Of course, when one of those cubs is really just shell, it is also possible to slide another cube, slightly shrunken/understated, into that shell, and then expand it until it replaces the shell.

And yes, I do understand the 3d time concept, I think. If I'm right, it somewhat breaks down like this: Things taken out of their context do not retain their true meaning, and by changing one thing, you change everything.
 
Bates: Bingo!

Pagan: one of the scenarios above - they either get "injected" slowly, like goop - like most (notably not all) Finns in Sweden. They've snuck in so slowly that they've assimilated and taken up much of what's ours and we have assimilated and taken up parts of their culture into ours. Or the new people come in with a crash, like the Britts to North America or the Spaniards and Portugese in South America, causing the implosion of the previous system, which means that the pieces have fallen how they may. Some go on to get re-used towards creating a whole new melded culture (which, according to some - including myself - seems to be what happened in Scandinavia in pre-history when we had a new culture arriving and melding with the old to form a new entity after some fighting), while in other cases, all of the blocks are discarded and are replaced with the new peoples'. When you're talking about people, though, people can be physically moved. A culture cannot move on it's own - it travels within the people who are part of it - which is why many people have just moved out of the way of the new people rather than fighting or being swallowed up.
What I am getting at with this whole discussion is, that with this knowledge in hand, we are today better informed of what our chances are as a culture if we act one way or the other. We still have whole people being pushed out of the way by other people, we still have immigration, both small scale and large scale, and we still have invasions, and we still have to deal with the result of our ancestors' acts regarding immigration/war/religion etc - all of which have the potential to either implode, explode or just change the cube. Which would you rather have: a changed society where all fit in, a changed society where only one group will have the power until the other group conforms, or a new society where one group has all the power? You now have the ability to work towards attaining that goal. Nota Bene: We ourselves do not live in a #d society, we're on a linear timeline.
Besides from that, but more on topic, the whole idea of 3d goes towards explaining why so many wannabe vikings/asatruar/wiccans/whatever fundamentally misunderstand the Norse culture/religion. You cannot be "truly asatru" and not undertand how to pass the mead horn during a feast and why, any more than you can be a soldier and not know why and how to clean your rifle. If the rifle is the extension of your arm and also the thing that gives you power, the mead horn is the extension of the gods, the family, the hird, the women, the very essence of power, and you cannot understand one without the other. If you just pass the horn around because "that's what it says in the book that they did" it's an empty gesture without meaning to anyone. So, studying or practising asatru without considering its political implications is futile, because it is a political system just as much as it is a religion. One underpins the other. It is my belief that if you apply national socialist ideas to asatru, you've proven that you've misunderstood the culture as a whole. Some people can do so quite comfortably. Bloodland cannot.
Why is it that I can never write a short post? Retorical question- I already know the answer, never mind....
 
Celtik Militia said:
yeah, i know the "thats your ancestral culture, stick to it" might sound a little harsh to say. I said that for Bloodland cause he's quite an annoying little fellow.
I'm not gonna stop anyone from wanting to be pagan even if i find it ridiculous that someone follows another people's ancestral culture and religion. I don't comprehend that, just how i don't comprehend wiggers. To me its quite the same thing. But at least they are interested in paganism, perhaps later in their lives they'll want to check out their own ancestral religion and feel closer to it, instead of hailing viking myths cause its today's trend... and perhaps more accessible for people in the metal scene or something.
It wouldn't be surprising that if black metal had started in italy and we had "Roman metal", many people would hail Mars and the roman empire's fascistic and imperialistic grimness :p... instead of the dark northern "brutal" grimness.

and i never said only those of germanic and celtic descent are welcome to be pagan. all peoples were pagan, all peoples can be pagan. An italian can praise the roman pantheon, an irishman the celtic pantheon, a dutch the german pantheon, a polish the slavic pantheon...etc... we can all be pagan and still follow our own traditions instead of appropriating ourselves that of others.
Click to expand...

you know what?! i don't know how and especially why but as a rival i'm beginning to respect you.

There seems to be few in common between us... you don't understand me... and maybe i don't understand you.... but something is growing a certain respect towards... don't believe me if you want but thats true... and regarding your reply to what i told you in pg 3.... mate, you're so bloody fucking contradictive... mate you're worse than the bible.... let me tell you... because you don't know what oyu write and you contradict yourself....btw stop being arrogant and a dick-head pretending to understand everything and pretending to have such a fucking experience because though you seem to have much... it revealed to be useless for coz you didn't learn nothing from... therefore better go and hide yourself under a stone and stay there waiting your death coz ppl like you are totally uselesss in this fucking globe.
 
I think so, but that's probably because no one is in swinging range of another. The biggest problem with the internet, no way to smack someone upside the head and tell them to shut up. :) The main argument is beyond me, I don't really get where either one is coming from.
 
bloodland said:
you know what?! i don't know how and especially why but as a rival i'm beginning to respect you.

There seems to be few in common between us... you don't understand me... and maybe i don't understand you.... but something is growing a certain respect towards... don't believe me if you want but thats true... and regarding your reply to what i told you in pg 3.... mate, you're so bloody fucking contradictive... mate you're worse than the bible.... let me tell you... because you don't know what oyu write and you contradict yourself....btw stop being arrogant and a dick-head pretending to understand everything and pretending to have such a fucking experience because though you seem to have much... it revealed to be useless for coz you didn't learn nothing from... therefore better go and hide yourself under a stone and stay there waiting your death coz ppl like you are totally uselesss in this fucking globe.
Click to expand...

mmmmmh, i love how people like you dare talk about "contradiction" without quoting. Prove my contradictions please. again, i find it stupid that you "want to be asatru". no one WANTS to be asatru, people become asatru by true life experience and religious philosophy. those who WANT to be asatru like you are just those who feel norse mythology is cool and vikings are cool... you're never gonna admit it but deep inside you know i'm right. Your posts show that you have aboslutely no knowledge in the true philosophies of norse and germanic paganism. But being asatru is cool... you want to be part of that like the sheep you are. fine with me, i don't mind... i am for a rebirth of paganism in europe. i just find it embarassing that people like you can claim to be "embassadors" of asatru faith although you got into it before knowing the basics of the germanic pantheon and its religious philosophies.
And you don't know anything about my life. i can tell you i am not useless at all. I'm a 24/7 militant for the french and european nationalist movements. i actually act. i've been in violent manifestations, i've stood my ground with a dozen nationalist brothers against hundreds of leftist scum. What have you done to prove your courage and worthiness to belong to a pagan pantheon?
I don't hide, unlike you. i'm not the one who's scared to be mistaken with a nazi because i wear pagan symbols.
 
Bates said:
I think so, but that's probably because no one is in swinging range of another. The biggest problem with the internet, no way to smack someone upside the head and tell them to shut up. :) The main argument is beyond me, I don't really get where either one is coming from.
Click to expand...

basicly there are those who feel people should stick to their own people's culture and those who feel that people like wiggers are not an embarrassment.

the other argument is that of a wannabe asatru who thinks he can achieve asatru goals (which is the repaganisation of europe) although he has no racial conscience, he doesnt realise that asatru means shit if it doesn't support its racial heritage. its not in a cosmopolite society with a minority of true white (european) people that asatru will flourish... thats simply obvious.

I hail David Lane's Wotanism. (cf wikipedia for some basic info)
 
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