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[unknown]

and you know...getting to learn about another culture that often happens from studying any language, reading that culture's literature in its original language and things like that.

Not to mention that translating is a fairly complex task and involves a lot of issues of ownership of text and what the translator is doing by the very act of translating a text from another language

 

[Vimana]

That's true. I remember hearing somewhere "you don't learn a language. You learn a culture."

 

[zabu of nΩd]

and you know...getting to learn about another culture that often happens from studying any language, reading that culture's literature in its original language and things like that.

Not to mention that translating is a fairly complex task and involves a lot of issues of ownership of text and what the translator is doing by the very act of translating a text from another language

Are you saying that these perks of studying dead languages are ends in and of themselves, or do they serve some more important purpose? If it's the latter, you're being rather vague/incomplete about what that purpose is.

 

[Vimana]

Not accusing you of this, Grant, but I don't think most people truly grasp the meaning of "dead language." A dead language is one whose words no one says anymore, that lacks any meaningful or visible influence on any modern language. Latin, ancient Greek, Sanskrit, old Persian, and old Norse do not really fall into that category. There are still parallels with the modern versions in the form of terms and phrases within that are directly taken from the languages from which they are descended. A dead language is something like Akkadian or Sumerian.

 

[unknown]

Are you saying that these perks of studying dead languages are ends in and of themselves, or do they serve some more important purpose? If it's the latter, you're being rather vague/incomplete about what that purpose is.

I'd say they are ends in themselves, which can be considered an important purpose...it's important to the individual studying and the body of researchers in the field. College used to be about cultivating the individual and becoming a more worldly, knowledgeable person...now it's sole purpose (becoming a means to an end) is to spit out happy complacent workers

Also the "perks" I listed are not the only perks I'm guessing. I haven't studied dead languages (other than Middle English), so I can't exactly vouch for what other perks might be.

 

[Vimana]

If you study Latin and ancient Greek, technical and obscure English words more or less become no-brainers. I nailed every English vocab quiz because we'd get words like "opulence" and "soporific."

 

[Zephyrus]

If you think that's the only benefit of studying Latin and Greek then I have no sympathy for your eventual failure at life. Mike is right when he says you learn more than a language, but the culture that speaks it. And these cultures happen to be those that serve as the foundation of Western Civilization itself. To understand the ideas of those cultures in their own languages sheds profound insights into our own culture and instructs us in how to address the problems of the modern day.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Not accusing you of this, Grant, but I don't think most people truly grasp the meaning of "dead language." A dead language is one whose words no one says anymore, that lacks any meaningful or visible influence on any modern language. Latin, ancient Greek, Sanskrit, old Persian, and old Norse do not really fall into that category. There are still parallels with the modern versions in the form of terms and phrases within that are directly taken from the languages from which they are descended. A dead language is something like Akkadian or Sumerian.

Whether or not Greek and Latin were good examples of dead languages doesn't really have a bearing on my line of inquiry, but thanks for clarifying that.

I'd say they are ends in themselves, which can be considered an important purpose...it's important to the individual studying and the body of researchers in the field. College used to be about cultivating the individual and becoming a more worldly, knowledgeable person...now it's sole purpose (becoming a means to an end) is to spit out happy complacent workers

Also the "perks" I listed are not the only perks I'm guessing. I haven't studied dead languages (other than Middle English), so I can't exactly vouch for what other perks might be.

I understand that the economic pressure to pursue more 'employable' fields of study tends to dilute the cultivation of the individual in higher education, but i suspect that what it gets down to ultimately is how many individuals are interested enough in something to major in it.

I guess you could argue that those who major in more employable fields are dullards who cannot appreciate the fundamental things in life, but i think there are also many 'non-dullards' who consider the pursuit of modern problems in science, technology and business/politics to have much more value to humanity than the pursuit of more academic topics whose applicability to the world at large are less clear.

In other words, i would expect the developer of something like a social media website to have more of a contribution to human progress (politically and economically) than someone with expertise in literature/art/philosophy/etc.

 

[unknown]

Unfortunately, your first point seems to be right. Majority of people don't see a value in studying "dead" languages. As a result, fewer people enroll in the majors, and then the majors get cut.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

If you think that's the only benefit of studying Latin and Greek then I have no sympathy for your eventual failure at life. Mike is right when he says you learn more than a language, but the culture that speaks it. And these cultures happen to be those that serve as the foundation of Western Civilization itself. To understand the ideas of those cultures in their own languages sheds profound insights into our own culture and instructs us in how to address the problems of the modern day.

I would like to hear some details of these profound insights you refer to. Could you describe / link to some that have cropped up in recent years?

 

[Zephyrus]

As perhaps the last Latin major to graduate from UMaine before they cut the program, I can tell you that majoring in classical languages is one of the best long-term investments one can make, and that job prospects are actually pretty good for them. There was a day and age when studying those languages was considered the core of a liberal education, which then allowed people to more competently apply themselves to more technical or specialized disciplines, namely politics, science, social work, you name it.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Ok, but you're still not being specific. Can you perhaps describe an example problem in politics or science and then explain how knowledge of classical languages can assist in the solution?

 

[Zephyrus]

I would like to hear some details of these profound insights you refer to. Could you describe / link to some that have cropped up in recent years?

Studying Greek and Roman theories of government is best accomplished by thinking about those ideas in their own language, and then applying that knowledge to modern systems of government and the challenges they face. For example, there are salient parallels between the current crisis pitting the rich against the disenfranchised between Late Republican Rome and modern day America, when populist politicians rode the wave of popular discontent to overthrow the senatorial oligarchy.

Studying Greek tragedy sheds light on the human experience in general. I coped with the famous situation with my 2-year breakup through reading Euripides' Medea. I understand my own education and place in society by reading Plato's Republic. My understanding of politics in general and its most persuasive ideas throughout history are all to be found in Thucydides' Peloponnesian War.

To be able to think in more than one language allows one to be more critical of one's time and place because language itself is a product and in a sense a JUSTIFICATION of time and place. Studying a "dead" language such as Latin and Greek not only allows you to step outside English in space, but also IN TIME thus giving you a more objective view, with the span of history being a reference point rather than the particular point in history that defines your previously held provincial, narrow worldview.

 

[Zephyrus]

And anyone going into the sciences will thrive knowing Greek and Latin, since scientific discourse is almost entirely those languages. The practical element is ever there.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Studying Greek and Roman theories of government is best accomplished by thinking about those ideas in their own language, and then applying that knowledge to modern systems of government and the challenges they face. For example, there are salient parallels between the current crisis pitting the rich against the disenfranchised between Late Republican Rome and modern day America, when populist politicians rode the wave of popular discontent to overthrow the senatorial oligarchy.

Good point, i can see this scenario potentially having some useful case studies in classical texts. Do you happen to know of any good published studies along these lines?

Studying Greek tragedy sheds light on the human experience in general. I coped with the famous situation with my 2-year breakup through reading Euripides' Medea. I understand my own education and place in society by reading Plato's Republic. My understanding of politics in general and its most persuasive ideas throughout history are all to be found in Thucydides' Peloponnesian War.

This sounds far more subjective. Whatever insights in Medea helped you cope with your breakup may exist all over the internet in blogs, forums, etc. today. I am skeptical about how much of such common knowledge is unique to Medea.

To be able to think in more than one language allows one to be more critical of one's time and place because language itself is a product and in a sense a JUSTIFICATION of time and place. Studying a "dead" language such as Latin and Greek not only allows you to step outside English in space, but also IN TIME thus giving you a more objective view, with the span of history being a reference point rather than the particular point in history that defines your previously held provincial, narrow worldview.

Maybe, but i really wonder about whether stepping inside the minds of classical society really offers something analogous to tools, systems, frameworks, etc. with broad applications, or whether it's more just a handful of good advice to be revisited periodically.

And anyone going into the sciences will thrive knowing Greek and Latin, since scientific discourse is almost entirely those languages. The practical element is ever there.

Not understanding you here. Are you saying scientists use a lot of Greek and Latin in today's periodicals and essays? I know a lot of formulae were originally developed in classical languages, but these have long since been translated to English, and the nonambiguous nature of math and science in my mind precludes any beneficial context shift that would come from speaking or thinking through the problems in another language.

 

[Vimana]

If you think that's the only benefit of studying Latin and Greek then I have no sympathy for your eventual failure at life. Mike is right when he says you learn more than a language, but the culture that speaks it. And these cultures happen to be those that serve as the foundation of Western Civilization itself. To understand the ideas of those cultures in their own languages sheds profound insights into our own culture and instructs us in how to address the problems of the modern day.

I don't think that's the only benefit, just the only one I think any everyday person could easily appreciate. I don't think I would be half as adept as I am for picking up new languages if it weren't for the time I spent on Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit. Those languages gave me an awareness of the subtleties of grammar, script, and pronunciation. Those skills have made tackling new languages for me anything but the frustrating mess it would otherwise be for me when I try new things.

 

[unknown]

just out of curiosity, how long did you study Latin, Greek and Sanskrit?

 

[Vimana]

Latin, for about a year, Greek for about six months, and Sanskrit for about a year. I only studied vigorously enough to gain a basic knowledge of the mechanics and vocabulary. Right now I set it aside to study some modern languages. I may pick it up again in the future, probably starting with Latin because I picked it up so easily because it's so much like Spanish, which I grew up speaking until I was around four years old.

Those languages made me aware of inflections and word order in ways I normally would not have been. And Sanskrit, well, that taught me that there are few modern languages that make me want to pull my hair out quite that much.

 

[skeptik]

New Dell laptop:

17.3" FHD (1080p) with 2.0MP HD Webcam
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90 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery

 

[Dak]

I understand my own education and place in society by reading Plato's Republic.

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