New Social Thread

[Krigloch the Furious]

It's a metal board. We're supposed to be dicks.

 

[Vimana]

I don't know any Christians that believe in following any part of Torah outside of the "10 Commandments" + anti-homosex.

Christianity is, generally speaking, the religion crafted by Paul. There is a reason the Gideons mostly pass out NTs, and most verses on church signs, and their sermons, come from the NT.

I think you are mistaken, Vimana, in saying there would be no books past Deut. The rest of the OT books are either history, poetry, or prophecy. They don't change anything about the Hebrew religion.

Obviously the books in the NT and the Quran are something else. To suggest WBC is somehow closer to the Hebrew religion compared to any other Christian denomination is pretty laughable.

These are common misconceptions. God was originally a Canaanite war god called "lord of armies," and the Hebrews split off from the Canaanites.

Deuteronomy was a forged book said to be written by Moses that was hidden in the foundation of Solomon's temple and "accidentally" discovered.

The monotheism comes from a subset of the people in Israel who believed exclusive worship of Yahweh would give them an army strong enough to not only not be conquered, but to conquer to the Euphrates.

Deuteronomy 1:7-8

7 turn you, and take your journey, and go to the hill-country of the Amorites and unto all the places nigh thereunto, in the Arabah, in the hill-country, and in the Lowland, and in the South, and by the sea-shore; the land of the Canaanites, and Lebanon, as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.

8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.'

That small group of Israelites used force to get the exclusive worship from the rest of Israel, as well as the use of manipulation by "discovering" Deuteronomy.

The conception people have of this god is the result of millennia of distortion. Ask any of the original, exclusive worshippers of this god, and he's a bloodthirsty, powerful, vengeful god who wants Babylon conquered, and the other gods eliminated. Hell, the Torah even mentions direction to destroy poles dedicated to Asherah in Exodus 34. Asherah was El's consort, and El is the God Israel was named after.

Eventually, El's name was turned into a generic term for god, and the names of gods like El-Shaddai (God Almighty), and El Elyon (God Most High) were explained as other names for Yahweh.

TL;DR: The idea that God loves anyone besides the Israelites is the result of thousands of years of distortion, which includes stuff people made up later (like Jesus), borrowing from other mythologies, and making up a message directly the opposite of the one they didn't want to follow. Killing people for carrying stuff on the Sabbath was needed to enforce strict worship of Yahweh when Yahweh's cult was getting rid of the other gods, but later, when Israel only believed in one god, people got tired of that, so they changed a god whose original name was "Lord of Armies" into an all-accepting God, when originally he wouldn't even let a man without a dick in his presence.

Deuteronomy 4:2 is where God says not to add or subtract anything. And, since people didn't follow it, this war god was eventually turned into a god that loves everyone. Well, except some Christians and Muslims keep to the original strict, bloodthirsty war god.

So yes, the WBC with their "God hates fags" is definitely much closer to the original god of the Torah than the one who loves everyone.

 

[Dak]

I don't see how anything you just posted was a disputation of anything I posted. All I was pointing out was that Christianity has almost no relation to the Torah (which you affirmed), and then pointed out WBC is part of the religion that bears little resemblance.

Regardless of the origin of Deut, talking about Yah/El only loving Israelites is kind of a semantics argument. It was possible to attain Israelite status/immigrate etc. Everyone just had to abide by the same rules. That's really no different than any modern government style of rule(the "modern" god). From a relative perspective, the Torah was pretty progressive. Even today Islam has different rules for adherents vs non-adherents.

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is home-born, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

 

[Vimana]

I guess I didn't really understand your argument that well. All I was saying is that God was originally much like the one the WBC worships.

 

[Dak]

I guess I didn't really understand your argument that well. All I was saying is that God was originally much like the one the WBC worships.

Unless your basing that purely on their heavy weighting of one commandment out of hundreds, I don't know where you get that.

I could start a typical Christian congregation and walk around with signs saying GOD HATES POLYESTER WEARERS and basically be WBC. I'm just picking something else out at random to be [militant] about. WBC is even off on their claims. There's nothing specific in Torah about Lesbianism.

I don't see how that makes them notably closer to "the original understanding of Yah/El" than Joel Osteen.

 

[King Richard]

Why is that weird?

because almost all my friends and family are normal people...

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Pretty cold bro. If I were krig I'd prob take offense.

obv i can't speak for his family, but i've never heard krig speak of working toward any major life goal other than losing weight.

 

[Dak]

obv i can't speak for his family, but i've never heard krig speak of working toward any major life goal other than losing weight.

Well playing in a band is another. Playing in a band and striving for personal health is more ambitious than personas some other UM members project.

 

[Vimana]

Unless your basing that purely on their heavy weighting of one commandment out of hundreds, I don't know where you get that.

I could start a typical Christian congregation and walk around with signs saying GOD HATES POLYESTER WEARERS and basically be WBC. I'm just picking something else out at random to be [militant] about. WBC is even off on their claims. There's nothing specific in Torah about Lesbianism.

I don't see how that makes them notably closer to "the original understanding of Yah/El" than Joel Osteen.

It's not based on one commandment out of the 613. It's based on the history of Israel, the history of "Lord of Armies," and Israel's military struggles with the Assyrians and Babylonians, as well as the dire need the Yahweh worshippers felt to unify Israel by killing those who worshipped other gods.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that Christianity, a religion big on being nice to others, "do unto others..." (which came from an earlier rabbi called Hillel), would try to paint the origin (by origin, I mean the cult of Yahweh, which forged a book to convince people to slaughter believers in other gods) of their religion as if it weren't filled with bloodshed, hatred, and imperialism. Islam does the same thing, and the funny part is that there's Persians doing it, when their peoples were slaughtered, and their culture was pretty much erased and replaced by Muslim invaders. There are still Zoroastrians, but their numbers are dwindling.

 

[King Richard]

Arguing about religion(s) is a major waste of time. Religious people along with the retards who don't "believe" in the theory of evolution lost a long time ago. Nothing to see here folks.

 

[Vimana]

I agree, but I think it's fun. I'm not trying to get rid of people's beliefs in debates like this. Just trying to clear up misconceptions about the origin of Abrahamic religion.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

Christians can't be "normal" people?

Ha, define normal. There are over 2.2 billion Christians in the world.

King has it right.

Religion is just another psychological weakness.

 

[PhlegethonVeins]

^ it may be, but having a psychological weakness is quite normal.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think Vimana is saying that the Christians we categorize as fanatic or "fundamentalist" are (obviously) more closely in line with the image of ancient monotheists. I think this is somewhat correct, but I also think it's a pointless comparison.

The WBC obviously despises homosexuality, as I'm sure ancient Judaic monotheists would have; but then again, homosexuality wasn't apparent or practiced in ancient times in the same way it is today, and it would in no way have been represented as a lifestyle in the way that it is today. Our relationship with homosexuality today is impossibly different than it was for ancient ethical monotheists.

And finally, "psychological weaknesses" are present in all subjects. In fact, I'm of the opinion that part of the definition of "human subject" requires that we all are victims of some form of psychological weakness. As Lacan said, part of what constitutes the subject is some form of lack...

In other news, I'm all moved in to my new apartment in the North End in Boston. The fiance and I got ourselves a pizza and are having some pumpkin beers and lounging on our couch. I finally feel like I can breathe after about a month of holding it. Can't wait to become more acquainted with my new neighborhood and new city.

 

[Vimana]

That's exactly what I was trying to say, but I couldn't organize my thoughts. I guess I should look on the bright side that the policies of those who created Abrahamic religion are considered extreme or unethical today.

 

[Dak]

It's not based on one commandment out of the 613.

Your comparison of WBC to the ancient Hebrew religion/cult/whatever is. That was my point. You are going way off on an informative but irrelevant tangent.

I think Vimana is saying that the Christians we categorize as fanatic or "fundamentalist" are (obviously) more closely in line with the image of ancient monotheists. I think this is somewhat correct, but I also think it's a pointless comparison.

I would disagree, unless we are purely drawing a comparison between levels of extremes themselves, and not similarities in dogma.

 

[Vimana]

After reading this over again, I think that I started with a non-sequitur aimed at PhlegethonVeins' post.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Or maybe this is how you started...

My new pipe hits like a gun.

Well playing in a band is another. Playing in a band and striving for personal health is more ambitious than personas some other UM members project.

Fair enough, i'll retract the "no ambitions" part of my comment.

 

[Dak]

 

[King Richard]

So I hit an all-time low the other day when I stood on my scale at home. I weighed in at 141.2 lbs, which is really skinny considering I'm 6' tall. It kind of hit me really hard that I've been neglecting my physical fitness, pretty much ever since I left the Marine Corps. I've attempted numerous times in the past few years to get back on track and work out regularly and I often start off well but end up losing interest, most of that was due to my work/school load taking its toll on me. But now that I have more free time and less excuses, and considering the fact that it hit me like a ton of bricks that I've been a bitch for a while now, I'm going hard at it.

I recently started training at a 10th Planet jiu jitsu gym in Indy getting thrashed by some really talented dudes which is a ton of motivation in itself because I'm insanely competitive, and usually when I get can dead set on something I want to do I accomplish it.

So having said all that, my goal by the end of the year is to be around 170 lbs and in good-great shape on my way to around 185. So far I'm off to a good start, I've gained 3 lbs since Friday. I'll take some before and after pictures to keep it real brehs.