Novembers Doom and Agalloch!

There will be 2 openers at the Portland show - Agalloch and some unknown grindcore band (this is what I've been told anyway - if it is true, I must ask...why???). We get 30 minutes, exactly 30 minutes. One minute over and we get cut off. We have prepared a special setlist which we have timed at just over 28 minutes. As one of the loser opening acts we can live with it and we are professional enough to understand that it is not our tour. We were simply invited for one show. I'm just happy to see the 3 touring bands, especially Katatonia, for free and the show will be a nice warm-up for our (more important) European tour. However, I cannot imagine why they are having 2 opening acts at the Portland show when the venue is all ages and there is a curfew! Will Katatonia or Moonspell be treated with the "cut off" threat as well?? I sincerely hope not!

Just my two cents.

J
 
Most people will agree that having Agalloch on the bill is an enhancement. Like I said, having one local special guest opener is quite understandable and we've enjoyed being in that position ourselves in the past. When these promoters book two, three, four, etc. especially on an all ages show, that's just ridiculous.

A band like Agalloch or ourselves at least I think have the decency and professionalism to respect the tour's needs and as you said, make sure your set time is proper length and such. Some of these locals though, man.....Haughm, remember Toronto 2004? What an attitude we ran into there with the local act. At least we did, not sure how much you guys had to encounter it. We cut our set way short that night due to the whole lateness of the show starting and the technical problems, and the opening act was blabbing to us about how they felt cheated that they didn't get to play for 45 minutes!! LOL I mean nothing against those people personally but c'mon, be reasonable huh?

I certainly don't view having bands like Agalloch or Shroud of Bereavement as "loser opening acts" personally, I think it's a nice treat for the fans of this kind of music who'll largely be populating the crowds on this tour. But yeah, also adding the 'grind' band and then the 'metalcore' band and then the promoter's sister's nephew's garage band and so forth, what the fuck? Promoters are out to make a buck and I respect that to a point but some better common sense and planning on their part ought to prevail, I think.

I'd love to see that Portland show, that's gonna be something. Oh well I get to see a pretty nice bill every night in Europe soon ;)
 
NvmbrsDoom5 said:
Some of these locals though, man.....Haughm, remember Toronto 2004? What an attitude we ran into there with the local act. At least we did, not sure how much you guys had to encounter it. We cut our set way short that night due to the whole lateness of the show starting and the technical problems, and the opening act was blabbing to us about how they felt cheated that they didn't get to play for 45 minutes!! LOL I mean nothing against those people personally but c'mon, be reasonable huh?
Click to expand...

I remember that, though they didn't confront us at all. I think they only played 3 songs and then started introducing each band member!! I just flipped them off and yelled at them that nobody gives a fuck who they are and to get off the fucking stage immediately. I have no problem with being viewed as an asshole when it is justified. That night was just stupid all around. We had a similar situation in Phoenix in 2003 during our Heathen Pride tour. The stupid promoter added 4 extra bands - mostly brutal death type stuff. I wasn't actually there to see this but I was told that the members of the first band were heckling and yelling at ANTIMATTER to get off the stage! Antimatter! One of the touring bands featuring an ex-Anathema member! What the hell?! No respect at all and no professionalism but what else can one expect from a bunch of teenagers, eh? I hate all ages shows.

J
 
ohh man, this is goinig to be long, and I hope not misinturpeted. First, I really hope people don't think the we were being assholes and such. I never said that I wasn't greatful for being part of this show. I even thanked all 3 touring acts during our set for having the opertunity to be able to play the show. New england is a very rough crowd so to speak, If people don't like you or it's not "cool" to like a specefic band or they aren't "in" there will be shit slinging. This is the clickiest scene in the world. As for my personal tastes, yeah, I am not a fan of Moonspell, But, that does not mean that I don't respect them as musicians, Yeah I was in the other room for their set, I did however neglect to mention that we were loading gear, merch and whatever other shit we had at the club. I did stay for one of their songs, before the craziness of loading out started. Honestly, I haven't liked them from the beginning. And again, they are good musicians, I just am one of the pickiest people on the planet musically speaking and I don't think I should get shit for my opinion.

As for The 4 local bands on the bill ...it's horseshit, absolutely not fair to 1. the headliners, 2. the fans, 3. the local bands, because they get stuck doing the promoters job, and in most cases get fucked in the ass, 4. the bands that do bust their asses (us) to sell the freaking tickets, I basically didn't sleep, have time for my baby, my girlfriend, my family, my music(composing) or my band because I was meeting people or promoting from when I got home from work till I got up for work! And the other bands sell 3 tickets and complain and talk shit the whole time!
So, yeah not good, but honestly, if any band were asked to do the show, they would, right? so you can't blame the bands either, you have to blame the clubs, the promoters and the tour manager. After speaking with Keen Of The Crow, They said the same shit is happening over there, where they thought it was just them or maybe one more band on the bill, there are 3 or 4 again!!!!! This is happening everywhere in America, it's just an easy way for the club owner and other responsible parties to not have to come up with the cash to pay the Tour package their price. In other words, so the club doesn't have to eat a loss when 50 people show up. On paper, it makes sense, but as we all see, obvioulsy not in real life.

About Moonspell giving me shit on their forum, yeah I was a bit pissed about that shit. They threatened to "throw me off the forum" if I promoted "MY" gig on their forum? That's bullshit! If anything it helps them out! Yeah if I randomly post threads about my band on another bands forum and have never posted there before and don't know any body in the band or their friends, sure that's not right, but to help sell tickets so that Moonspell gets paid, that's fine as far as I am concerned. I don't see why they did that shit to me, and yeah, I was sour. Well, it's over so no biggie I guess.
I feel bad that things weren't so good for MS, I do hope the rest of the tour goes better for them.

sorry so long guys, I just hope this whole thing isn't geared towards me.
 
Dan,

I certainly wasn't trying to single you out. Not at all.

The problem is, local promoters are lazy. The pimp (promoter) gets 4 whores (bands) on board to do his leg work for the "privilege" to play in front of the tour package. A band like Agalloch or Shroud of Bereavement DESERVES to play a show like this and will only help his draw, not to be used as the promoters little whores. Sorry if this offends you brother, but he pimped you out, to minimize his risk, and in the end, turn a huge profit off the door after the guarantee, as well as the bar tab, and the certain 20% merch tax most clubs steal from the band, and what did you get for it? You got to lose sleep, spend time away from your family, and the headlining band pissed at you for something that was the promoters fault. Hardly seems worth it in the long run. The actual booking agent of the tour should have set up rules for the tour, only allowing ONE local opener.

These local promoters (and not all of them of course) look down on the local bands and treat them like dirt (try playing in NY,) but to your face, until they get your ticket money, you're the best thing on earth, because he needs you to do his job.

It's SO IMPORTANT that everyone supports the entire show, and doesn't leave early. If the show remains packed to the end, the promoter may be inclined to pay out more for the next tour in town, and not worry so much about risk, knowing he will make his money, but when people leave, the club loses money. Not on the door, they already got that money, but from the bar. Bodies mean cash.

I've seen bands here locally, that as soon as they whore themselves out to pay to play, they are instantly put on the "prostitute" list, and will be called anytime a gig is available where the bastards need someone to front some cash. I hate this fucking business. Everyone makes money BUT the bands.

The only way to combat a promoter like that is to refuse to be his whore, and at that point, someone else will be happy to step in, and suck the cock for the privilege to suck it another day... You can't win.

Dan, you did no wrong. You did a lot for the show, and should be commended for it. It's a shame someone got their pockets fat for your work, and you get the headache at the end of the day.
 
Haughm said:
I remember that, though they didn't confront us at all. I think they only played 3 songs and then started introducing each band member!! I just flipped them off and yelled at them that nobody gives a fuck who they are and to get off the fucking stage immediately. I have no problem with being viewed as an asshole when it is justified. That night was just stupid all around. We had a similar situation in Phoenix in 2003 during our Heathen Pride tour. The stupid promoter added 4 extra bands - mostly brutal death type stuff. I wasn't actually there to see this but I was told that the members of the first band were heckling and yelling at ANTIMATTER to get off the stage! Antimatter! One of the touring bands featuring an ex-Anathema member! What the hell?! No respect at all and no professionalism but what else can one expect from a bunch of teenagers, eh? I hate all ages shows.

J
Click to expand...

I'm just looking forward to Europe. We're going to have a blast, no matter what!
 
None of my comments were directed towards you, Dan. As I said in my last post, bands like Shroud of Bereavement and Agalloch deserve to be on the bill with bands like this, and I think are viewed as being an asset to the bill, as a special guest treat for the fans. You shouldn't even have to sell tickets to be on the bill, that's the truth.

We don't and won't sell tickets and pay-to-play. That doesn't mean we think we're better than anyone else, nor do we look down upon those bands who will do it. It's just a practice that we don't believe in and won't support, even if it means we won't get to play on certain shows or tours that we'd very much like to. I understand how tough it can be to be a promoter and how risky it can be. I wouldn't even be as dead set against the pay-to-play thing if it weren't for the fact that 9 times out of 10, the bands who do that wind up getting fucked over anyhow, with crappy set times, crappy sound and lights, and often playing before they've even really let the crowd in the doors. Add to that, the aforementioned situation regarding overcrowding a bill and causing the headlining acts to either play much too late or have to cut their set time down due to curfew....well you can see the problems with the whole thing. I'm sure the labels we've worked with, as well as many other people in the biz, will be quick to tell us that we've sort of fucked ourselves over the years with our stubborn attitudes and unwillingness to bend and conform to some of these things, and that it's held us back. I'm quite sure it has. Ultimately we do what we feel is right for us, even if it goes against the grain or isn't necessarily the smartest business move. We don't play out very often, not because we don't like playing live because actually we LOVE playing live. But we won't just play for any shithead club or shithead promoter who doesn't treat their bands accordingly and fairly, and put the time and effort on their end, into properly promoting the shows. When we come across those promoters and clubs who do things properly, we feel very grateful and blessed to have them, because it's not very often that it happens. Anyhow, point is, bands can do the pay to play thing if they want to, I don't begrudge them for doing it. It's just a shame that nowadays you're left with so few other options or routes to take in order to get yourself on a good bill, and so often, even if you get the gig, it doesn't pay off like you'd hoped for. This biz sucks, you either have to really love what you're playing, or just be crazy. Or both sometimes haha.
 
yes and he rocks :D his drumming on the "not unlike..." track is cool, it's not all that complicated... but it still bears a trademark, like my favourite Agalloch track, She Painted Fire Across The Skyline. John, you playing that in your Dutch show would make my day :D

i wonder what my friend will think of the show, he's totally not a metalhead, but i somehow managed to get him hooked to agalloch. let's see how he feels about seeing you live :)
 
I've had to "pay to play" or sell tickets a bunch of times, and every fucking time we have to, I wind up ready to kill somebody. We're never doing it again. If a promoter wants us to play a show opening for a huge touring band, we'll do it, but we're not selling tickets. We wind up laying money out of our own pockets for the privledge to play.

When you really think about it, that's fucking ridiculious. Sure, it's good to play for a packed club, but from my experience, we've played a whole bunch of shows opening for huge bands, and yet we're still selling tickets for shows some ten years after we formed.

Oh well, I really can't complain I guess. If I was in a band to make money, I sure as hell wouldn't be in a metal band.
 
Right, well I don't think any of us have any delusions about the fact that we're not gonna make money doing this, lol. Not to mention, more often than not, having to pay money out of our own pockets in great abundance over the years. But none of us should be having to pay money out of our pockets just to make someone else money, while we don't even get the great exposure and everything that we've been promised. I can remember times, back when Joe and I were in our old band together, that we paid to play to be on fests or open for national acts, and we wound up playing to basically nobody, because we played so early that they hadn't even really let people in the doors yet. What was the point? Meanwhile, when Joe and I go out and play stupid cover tunes at a local bar, we make decent money. And we surely don't draw the kinds of numbers that a Moonspell/Katatonia tour or a Cannibal Corpse tour or whatever would draw. I realise that tour packages have different money guarantees and it can be nerve-wrecking for promoters to make sure they can pay it, but if the promoter works hard with advertising and hustling, then they should be okay. But anyhow....

Now what we need is some brave promoter who'd make a fest with us, Agalloch, Shroud of Bereavement, Grey Skies Fallen, Woods of Ypres, Keen of the Crow, etc......and noone pays to play haha Then again with a bill like that I'm curious as to how well it'd even do in the States anyhow. In Canada or overseas, perhaps. We've gotten lucky with fests like Heathen Crusade and Day of the Equinox.
 
Yeah man, Heathen Crusade is shaping up to be great this year. I've heard so many great things about last years fest that you guys played. They're setting up and running that fest the way ALL promoters should be doing it...a refreshing change.

We got lucky with the Koshick fests back in the day, in that we were dealing with someone who was able to get us on the shows without having to sell the 50 tickets at $50 each! That would have been too much to lay out of pocket.

I remember being at one of the Jersey fests on Friday at like 5 PM, and there were bands who had to lay out a lot of money playing for 3 people. I felt bad for those guys, and obviously, I could relate.
 
Pay to play sucks overall as we're doing the promoters work (as has already been posted to death). I agreed due to who was on the tour, Moonspell, Katatonia and Daylight Dies. I was there for most of the gig (left over halfway thru Moonspell due to being extremely tired from lack of sleep the night before). Met fernando (no names exchanged), talked with their drummer, met some of the guys (most) in Daylight Dies, don't think I personally met any Katatonia folks (but did see them in venue before the show started).

Why there were 4 local bands opening is beyond me. Less set time for all, especially the touring bands. I'd have liked to see Moonspell get a bit more time, same for Katatonia (give em an hour man, at least!). Daylight Dies wasn't bad but a tad longer is always welcome. First it was 2 locals (us being added 2nd), then a 3rd and finally a 4th I found out at the Dismember/Grave tour a few weeks prior. I don't know how many of the attendees were non-band ticket sales. Supposedly sold out. Not so sure on that but it was a pretty damn good turnout.

Downside - Folks LEAVING after Katatonia, WTF? Aren't you there to support the scene and not just your favorite band(s)? I hate that shit, see it all the fucking time. And it's total bullshit. Don't you think you want to get your moneys-worth that night? Fucking COLD outside when I left! ;-( One of the bands IMHO shouldn't have been on the bill, they will remain unnamed as I am not into slinging any mud. I just thought it was bullshit and on top of that they're selling their tix at half cover-price? And the door was $5 more than cover-price of tix? Money hungry bastards.

Upside - We lucked out with the best opener slot which was really cool. A pretty good turnout overall. Got to meet some other bandmates/members and shoot the shit. See some old friends/fellow metalheads from prior shows.

Other than that I had a blast.

And Paul, you da man on the vox brutha! Too bad we ended up playing earlier than expected back in May when you and the boys came to see us! It was really great to see all of you guys again. Hope to see you guys soon!

Mike / SoB synth
 
Glad that it wound up being a worthy experience for you guys. People leaving before Moonspell doesn't surprise me unfortunately, knowing how people are. But it saddens me nonetheless. I think in alot of ways, ND can relate to Moonspell when it comes to bad luck and fighting an uphill battle.
 
Man, I missed a whole page during work..lol'

Thanks to the ND guys for there kind words, that means a lot to me, \m/

Shroud Agalloch, WOY, KOTC and Novembers Doom, holy shit that would be amazing!!!! Im in! lol sign me up!

Hey Mike, didn't know you posted here lol! In my band even lol!
well, good to see you posting on this awesome bands board.

Rick: dude, you are in GSF? Long time fan here, you guys rock! We just confirmed to play at Heathen Crusade 2, So I hope we get to meet/Drink beers! Will you be at the pre party on Thursday? I think we are flying out that morning! That will be awesome!!!!
 
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