OT: Debate Thread

[Beelzebub]

I noticed in the Off-Topic thread subject matter was getting kind of heavy, and not everyone wants to read that stuff all the time. I thought it would be a good idea to start a debate thread, where social, political, economic etc. issues could be discussed without putting a damper on the mood of otherwise lighthearted threads. Some guidelines to make this a pleasant experience for all:

• No flaming. The moment someone assumes it goes without saying, the moment it happens so I just wanted to get that out of the way.
• Don't say one-lined fluff like "lolz war is METAL!!11", you'll only wind up making yourself look like a jackass.
• If you write out an anecdote, please do so with the intention of helping to prove or disprove a point, and try to keep them as firsthand as possible. Once you start talking about your cousin's roommate's brother's neighbor's mother, your legitimacy factor starts to dwindle.
• It is very important to make yourself understandable when discussing a topic. It's alright if English isn't your first language, but try to check your spelling, grammar and punctuation to make sure you're being as clear as possible and to prevent anything you might have to say from being misinterpreted.
• When/if quoting an article, please include a link as well as copy and pasting it into your post in case the link doesn't work. If you want to be taken seriously, use reliable sources. Geocities pages and Cosmopolitan magazine don't count.
• On a similar note, please say if you're linking to an article with graphic images (lynched bodies, aborted fetuses, etc.). Try to avoid posting such images in this thread; not everyone wants to see them.
• More than one topic can be discussed at a time since so many things are going on in the world right now. However, please make it clear what you're talking about when you write something.
• DT vs. SX is not a pressing moral issue. If you think it is, go read the paper.
• This list of guidelines is subject to change.

Some helpful links:

• Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA): http://jama.ama-assn.org/
• BBC Online: http://www.bbc.co.uk/
• Nationmaster.com, a great website for international statistics: http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php
• Google (duh): http://www.google.com/
• Wikipedia (as above): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
• New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/
• Webster's dictionary: http://www.webster.com/
• Free translations: http://www.freetranslation.com/
• Arts & Letters Daily: http://www.aldaily.com/

If any of you guys have links you want me to put up here, send me a PM and I will. I hope this thread is a success. Happy discussing

 

[Beelzebub]

Topic: Is marriage obsolete?

I think in westernized society, it is. It's a well known fact that over 50% of American marriages end in divorce. There are pressures women and men feel, that they have to be married by 30 or else they'll be miserable old maids for the rest of their lives. Most people don't put any thought into the traditions surrounding marriage anymore. Marriage was initially an exhange of property, and there are hints of that in modern western marriages, such as giving away the bride. Is it possible for two people to love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together? Of course it is. Do they have to demonstrate this by getting married? No.

 

[Rose Immortal]

I don't think marriage is obsolete...to me the problem stems not from obsolescence but from society's inability to take it seriously.

I think we have an innate need for that mate whom we can trust for everything--and I think marriage is perhaps the ultimate demonstration of trust, because to put oneself in a binding commitment for life is a HUGE thing to do. I think many people rush into marriage without thinking this through...two major problems arise. These days, we tend to think romantic/sexual love is the real driver and predictor of a successful marriage; when the passion cools, the head-over-heels couple is suddenly quite nasty to each other because of problems they thought they could sweep under the rug with a lot of sex. The keys are the underlying trust, respect, and friendship that create a different kind of love, one that is more in the heart and the spirit than the libido (although that's a part of a healthy marriage, too...just not the most IMPORTANT one).

The other problem is that people are seeing marriage as a trial period...that's what engagement is for as far as I'm concerned. If a couple is not married, I find myself questioning the degree of commitment of one to the other. What is the partner with cold feet afraid of? To be blunt, I could not give my full trust to a man who felt the need to leave what amounts to a "escape route" or a "cheating clause". Marriage demands the utmost trust--I will accept no less in return for my own trust.

The final reason I think marriage is still extremely important: while human instinct is to take multiple partners, human health is NOT helped by such a practice. It's fairly safe to say that if all adultery were to cease today, the propagation of STDs would slow dramatically. Yes, condoms do help slow diseases as well, but not to the same level of confidence as only having one sexual partner in one's lifetime (with the exception of remarriage after a partner's death). I think that this points to a very real public-health need for marriage.

None of this discussion even takes a religious angle into account, but obviously those who follow a religion feel very strongly about the marriage custom.

 

[Matt]

Marriage is not obsolete because alot of people will refuse to have babies born in beakers, so therefore they will need a partner in order to have children.


that was pretty lame, but oh well. great thread btw.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Marriage isnt what it once was. I guess ppl used to believe that if you didnt marry you would go to hell. Also it was a status thing.

Nowadays ppl have realised that its all downhill from marriage onwards . This is bcos couples get comfortable with their situation and believe that they dont need to work for the relationship anymore, so it becomes more predictable etc.

I want to get married for the fun of it, and just bcos it would be a great experience, and a great couple experience.

 

[Beelzebub]

The final reason I think marriage is still extremely important: while human instinct is to take multiple partners, human health is NOT helped by such a practice. It's fairly safe to say that if all adultery were to cease today, the propagation of STDs would slow dramatically. Yes, condoms do help slow diseases as well, but not to the same level of confidence as only having one sexual partner in one's lifetime (with the exception of remarriage after a partner's death). I think that this points to a very real public-health need for marriage.

Two people can be life partners without being married, and not spread STD's just as well. Plus, I think being together as a mutual agreement is nicer than being married because it's what society dictates.

 

[NegativeVolume]

I'm not sure marriage is obsolete today, but the connotation of marriage sure has changed from yesteryear. And this sort of contradiction in old and new skewl thoughts in marriage is probably where most of these divorces come from. That and the fact that it's real easy to get a divorce in America.

I find that the most healthy marriages today are the ones where both sides of the couple don't take it as seriously as possible. I find that the people who expect the world and don't quite get the world in a relationship are destined to fail. My brother's marriage is I believe ten years strong now and it's just the same as it was when I first met my sis-in-law. They both know when to be serious, know when to lighten up, and generally they seem very compatible as friends. To me, that's a great recipe for marriage.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Two people can be life partners without being married, and not spread STD's just as well. Plus, I think being together as a mutual agreement is nicer than being married because it's what society dictates.

I go back to my old question, though--if the commitment to each other is as true as that of a couple that marries, then why the fear? Why the need for an escape route? I seriously question the commitment level of such a couple if marriage is legally available to them yet they don't eventually take it (not counting the time of the engagement period).

 

[Kenneth R.]

I go back to my old question, though--if the commitment to each other is as true as that of a couple that marries, then why the fear? Why the need for an escape route? I seriously question the commitment level of such a couple if marriage is legally available to them yet they don't eventually take it (not counting the time of the engagement period).

agreed.

I find that today's world is very A.D.D so to speak, and couples rush headlong into marriage before they're ready, find out they hate each other, and divorce. Either this or what you've said in the quote above. I find it all to be very juvenile, and a result of the instant-gratification society, where the central focus of a relationship is sex, and when problems arise one simply finds a new partner.

Also: Isn't it ironic that straight people brush off marriage now as if they take it for granted, yet gays fight fervently for this discarded right? Marriage to me has nothing to do with tradition, and everything to do with the idea of an eternal promise.

 

[Alexander*_Reborn]

I'm a sociology student outta my way. Nice idea for a thread although it is a little like talking shop out of office hours, I'll try not to bore too much.

A lot of this I think can be pinned down to changing gender roles but these are extremely diversified across cultural boundaries, so much so that even a US/UK comparison would be inapplicable due to the vastly different scope of religious idealism.

Nobody can deny that opportunities for women have proliferated within all sections of society and this trend can be seen statistically to coincide with the decline in numbers for marriages. The decline of traditional male industries such as manufacturing with the Liberal restructuring of society and technological advancement has seen entire occupations disappear into the hands of Eastern labour markets who are able to seize control with significantly lower wage demands playing into the hands of the domineering MNCs (multi-national corporations).

This has all but destroyed the traditional British model of the 'male breadwinner' in his hunter-gather role sweating it out at the steel works all day to support his hopelessly dependent wife and children. The growth of the service sector as part of the new consumer environment bestowed the gender-categorized qualities of women as being far more suited to this new liberalised form of contemporary employment. Women are now a sustaining factor in an economy built upon jobs that demand new forms of presentation and communication in office positions, department stores and corporate relations within the massivley increasing leisure, health/beauty and recreational industries. The decline in traditional male forms of employment coupled with the new economic reliance upon women with a vast array of new professional opportunities opening up have practically shattered the old family hierarchy and the biological need (survival) of the marriage institution. In short women now have the autonomy and opportunity to survive and thrive without the financially sustaining figure of the male breadwinner and this has predictably created new diversities within male-female relationship patterns.


Now where we we, I much prefer Star Wars over Star Trek because it has light sabres, storm troopers and smelly wookies 'raaaaaaaaaaaaaooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww'. Actually I prefer this kind of off topic truth be told.

 

[Fakerofdeath]

Marriage is obsolete. People are marrying each other for health insurance and benefits.

 

[ABQShredHead]

Which is probably why said divorce rate is so high.

I, for one, believe in the institution of marriage. I like having a ring on my finger. I took vows in front of my closest friends and my God, and I intend to keep those vows until I die.

Is marriage obsolete? Maybe; but, if it truly is, how do you propose to define the family unit? Sure, a kid can say, "that's my dad" or "that's my mom", but where does it go above that? How does said kid's dad refer to said kid's mom in a social situation without causing potential grief and embarrassment for their kid?

To me, marriage goes well beyond health insurance and benefits to a support structure and model for my family. I pretty much agree with Kenneth's statements, and think marriage is a traditional concept with very well defined parameters.

 

[Taliwakker]

I am indifferent to the concept of marriage.
If you love someone and you want to spend the rest of your life with them I don't think you need a piece of paper and a small debt to prove it.
My partner (of 9 years) and i discussed it a while ago and figured there was nothing wrong with the status quo...if she turns around next week and says she really wants to get married i won't have a problem with that either.
Also at the time we asked our son what he thought of the idea and he said if i tried to marry his mum he'd stab me in the eye

as for

To be blunt, I could not give my full trust to a man who felt the need to leave what amounts to a "escape route" or a "cheating clause".

If he loves you he's gonna be faithful and want to stay with you....if he wants to fuck around its not gonna make any difference if you are married or not.

How does said kid's dad refer to said kid's mom in a social situation without causing potential grief and embarrassment for their kid?

This are the terms i use

my partner
the mrs
my woman
Jacob's mum
Kylie

as for your kid getting embarressed by this...i dunno...its pretty common these days (as this thread suggests).....it would be a lot harder if its the explanation of my two mums that live together or two dads.

 

[Horus]

Since I didn't actually read the other posts, and I had something to say about the topic, I'm just gonna go ahead and say what's on my mind.

Marriage is indeed obsolete. Why is this? Because marriage isn't about true love anymore.... actually, it never was. So yeah... But Marriage doesn't really mean anything anymore. There's only 3 reasons to get married anymore:
1. The satisfaction of saying that you're married
2. The woman (or whichever partner appears to be the more feminine of the 2) takes the other's last name.
3. Another excuse for a big party with a cake.
Other than that, there's no reason for marriage to happen anymore.

Now, there is one and ONLY ONE exception to this rule, and that exception is if the couple really is in true love, and then, there is a point, because, since marriage is a lifelong bond, you're bonding yourself with someone that you really do truly care about. Most people get married, and after a few months or a year or so, want out, so they file for a divorce. And that proves that they aren't truly in love. And some people also get married for the purpose of having mutual sex with their partner. I find that even worse. And then there's the kind of people, who get married for the sake of getting married, and then go out and constantly cheat on their partner. That is just retarted. Because of things like that constantly happening, marriage should just be no more. It's not worth the trouble.

 

[Beelzebub]

2. The woman (or whichever partner appears to be the more feminine of the 2) takes the other's last name.

For future reference, kindly read what everyone else has to say; it's not fair to skip over lucid, insightful posts other people took the time to write and it prevents the same point from being made over and over and over again when you can just (dis)agree with someone else.

Anyways, isn't it more commonplace for women to at least hyphenate their names or to keep their maiden names? That's another thing that has to do with changing gender roles, that Alexander*_Reborn touched upon. I don't get most women nowadays (should this be cross-referenced? lol). At least here, they act like they're totally independent yet at the same time expect men to wait on them hand and foot. I think there are two types of 50/50, where a woman can be the traditional wife, staying at home, taking care of the kids, etc. while the husband earns the money. Option #2 would be to be like another breadwinner, who does have a career, splits parenting responsibilities with her husband, and uses her own money to go shoe shopping and pay the electric bill.

Marriage definitely isn't for everyone. If the right person came along then I'd do it, but at this point in my life I have no business even thinking about such things.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Is marriage obsolete? Maybe; but, if it truly is, how do you propose to define the family unit? Sure, a kid can say, "that's my dad" or "that's my mom", but where does it go above that? How does said kid's dad refer to said kid's mom in a social situation without causing potential grief and embarrassment for their kid?

I agree about the importance marriage lends to stability for the children.

Also, Ohio State University released a study this month that claims that getting married increases the mental health of both parties involved, and has positive effects when one of the partners is clinically depressed.

I am indifferent to the concept of marriage.
If you love someone and you want to spend the rest of your life with them I don't think you need a piece of paper and a small debt to prove it.
My partner (of 9 years) and i discussed it a while ago and figured there was nothing wrong with the status quo...if she turns around next week and says she really wants to get married i won't have a problem with that either.
Also at the time we asked our son what he thought of the idea and he said if i tried to marry his mum he'd stab me in the eye

If he loves you he's gonna be faithful and want to stay with you....if he wants to fuck around its not gonna make any difference if you are married or not.
.

That gets to an important point. Marriage should be to affirm what's already there in terms of commitment. It's not the piece of paper that matters, but that final affirmation of one's loyalty. Without it, I have to wonder if at least one of the parties wants all of the benefits without any of the responsibilities.

 

[Horus]

I don't think marriage is obsolete...to me the problem stems not from obsolescence but from society's inability to take it seriously.

Very well said.

I think many people rush into marriage without thinking this through...two major problems arise. These days, we tend to think romantic/sexual love is the real driver and predictor of a successful marriage; when the passion cools, the head-over-heels couple is suddenly quite nasty to each other because of problems they thought they could sweep under the rug with a lot of sex.

IMO, that's one of the reasons why marriage is obsolete. People get married now for sex, not for love. You don't need to marry someone to have sex with them. You don't need to say "I do" to get in someone's pants. Proven fact.

The other problem is that people are seeing marriage as a trial period...that's what engagement is for as far as I'm concerned.

You know, I never saw it like that before.

If a couple is not married, I find myself questioning the degree of commitment of one to the other. What is the partner with cold feet afraid of? To be blunt, I could not give my full trust to a man who felt the need to leave what amounts to a "escape route" or a "cheating clause". Marriage demands the utmost trust--I will accept no less in return for my own trust.

The argument of trust can also defend the side of marriage being obsolete. Because even after alot of people get married, they still don't trust eachother. If marriage is a pledge that you put your full truat into their partner, then not too many people are doing a very good job with holding up their end of the bargain.

The final reason I think marriage is still extremely important: while human instinct is to take multiple partners, human health is NOT helped by such a practice. It's fairly safe to say that if all adultery were to cease today, the propagation of STDs would slow dramatically. Yes, condoms do help slow diseases as well, but not to the same level of confidence as only having one sexual partner in one's lifetime (with the exception of remarriage after a partner's death). I think that this points to a very real public-health need for marriage.

Touche.

Marriage isnt what it once was. I guess ppl used to believe that if you didnt marry you would go to hell. Also it was a status thing.

Like I said before, people get married for the sake of saying that they're married.

A lot of this I think can be pinned down to changing gender roles but these are extremely diversified across cultural boundaries, so much so that even a US/UK comparison would be inapplicable due to the vastly different scope of religious idealism.

Not to mention Theocratic places where the women are regarded for only 2 purposes: A) Making Babies, and B) Worshipping the men

Nobody can deny that opportunities for women have proliferated within all sections of society and this trend can be seen statistically to coincide with the decline in numbers for marriages. The decline of traditional male industries such as manufacturing with the Liberal restructuring of society and technological advancement has seen entire occupations disappear into the hands of Eastern labour markets who are able to seize control with significantly lower wage demands playing into the hands of the domineering MNCs (multi-national corporations).

I'd rather have foreigners doing dirty jobs if it means the women in my country are clean, but hey. That's just my $3.

Marriage is obsolete. People are marrying each other for health insurance and benefits.

Don't forget for someone else to hold responsible for your own personal mistakes.

Which is probably why said divorce rate is so high.

Indeed.

I, for one, believe in the institution of marriage. I like having a ring on my finger. I took vows in front of my closest friends and my God, and I intend to keep those vows until I die.

That's how marriage is supposed to be. High five to ABQShredHead for having some morals.

I pretty much agree with Kenneth's statements, and think marriage is a traditional concept with very well defined parameters.

If only people still saw it that way.

For future reference, kindly read what everyone else has to say; it's not fair to skip over lucid, insightful posts other people took the time to write and it prevents the same point from being made over and over and over again when you can just (dis)agree with someone else.

Sorry. I just saw what the topic of discussion was and I kinda jumped to it, 'cause this is a debate I've ahd quite afew times and I felt like I had to jump to it, for reasons unkown.

 

[frozen_core]

Two people can be life partners without being married, and not spread STD's just as well. Plus, I think being together as a mutual agreement is nicer than being married because it's what society dictates.

I agree completely that two people can be life partners without being married. However, some couples feel the need to have that "spiritual" bond placed upon them, in the eyes of whatever "God" or higher being they believe in. Very true, though, that some couples are getting married just for the sake of getting married without knowing really what the whole marriage/spiritual bond process means. I for one do not know what it means religiously, nor do I wish to, thus not seeing a need for a wedding in my own future.

 

[Beelzebub]

That gets to an important point. Marriage should be to affirm what's already there in terms of commitment. It's not the piece of paper that matters, but that final affirmation of one's loyalty. Without it, I have to wonder if at least one of the parties wants all of the benefits without any of the responsibilities.

Some people don't need marriage to affirm their loyalty to one another.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Some people don't need marriage to affirm their loyalty to one another.

But if they do indeed have sufficient loyalty--then what's holding them back? Why the fear? Marriage would be affirming what's already there.