Philosophy- Discuss Here

[Mystique1721]

Philosophy is about reflexion in order to understand more ourselves, the others, life etc... I also find the discussion interesting but I don't get everything. Maybe Mystique can precise a bit more . The thing is that many subjects have been discussed and it's a bit confusing.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Sometimes just talking about one topic leads you astray to other topics to prove the point of the former. What my first post is basically talking about is the meaning people prescribe to things, when there is no meaning there. It's like a random, chaotic universe, and we are purposely finding meaning it in. I feel that we do this for security's sake.

Then dawnghost and I started discussing the use of logic in this type of reasoning. He basically was saying that I am drawing my conclusions with no valid proofs (maybe if you've taken a logic course you know what I mean by proof? Like a set of premises that logically derives a conclusion). But then I argued that a proof cannot be used for the unknowable, well, because, it's unknown. And that's the same reason I think that knowledge doesn't exist, because we can't know it to begin with.

So maybe this conversation is on the existence of knowledge and truth. Like beyond the physical world.

 

[bobvex]

this topic can get fiery, but i'm not closing this thread, because it's been civil so far. just keep it that way, and respect each others thoughts and opinions, and all should be well.

 

[MegustaMucho]

hrrrrr philosophy... I prefer to think about something that actually makes a difference in the way the world works, like Psychology.

you mean sociology , psychology is how the individuals work lol

 

[Silver Incubus]

Yeah, I'm sorry. Sometimes just talking about one topic leads you astray to other topics to prove the point of the former. What my first post is basically talking about is the meaning people prescribe to things, when there is no meaning there. It's like a random, chaotic universe, and we are purposely finding meaning it in. I feel that we do this for security's sake.

Then dawnghost and I started discussing the use of logic in this type of reasoning. He basically was saying that I am drawing my conclusions with no valid proofs (maybe if you've taken a logic course you know what I mean by proof? Like a set of premises that logically derives a conclusion). But then I argued that a proof cannot be used for the unknowable, well, because, it's unknown. And that's the same reason I think that knowledge doesn't exist, because we can't know it to begin with.

So maybe this conversation is on the existence of knowledge and truth. Like beyond the physical world.

I just want to touch on the 'now' as proof of at least truth. I will say that absolute truth(whatever that is) is not possible and truth exists in a pragmatic sense. For a silly example, if I kick someone and they feel pain then the truth is that my kick caused that person pain. Then that creates knowledge that if I kick that person it will cause them pain. As far as I know, that is a reasonable definition for truth and knowledge. IF theres is no knowledge then how do you even know about logic, philosophy, math etc. To me, truth is only what works, what is verifiable, and that is why I don't actually believe in the metaphysical unless you define meta-physical as hallucinations or thoughts which actually can seem like they exist in the real world but are only subjective impositions of their own reality.
Just to clear up a misconception, everyone has the ability to hallucinate, think about what it'd be like to be sitting and driving a Porche, feeling the wheel and the rev of the motor and the sound of the engine purring. Thats a hallucination. IF people can fight over what god is, then it goes to prove that it doesn't exist in the real world and is only made up in peoples minds.

IF i said some latin and believed that my cereal turned into the body of Julius Caesar, I would be crazy, but If on sunday you eat a cracker and think its the body of christ.... well you are probably sane, intelligent and also a catholic. IF half the world still believes that the world is flat, it does not make it true, the same goes for religion, morals, values etc.

 

[Mystique1721]

I just want to touch on the 'now' as proof of at least truth. I will say that absolute truth(whatever that is) is not possible and truth exists in a pragmatic sense. For a silly example, if I kick someone and they feel pain then the truth is that my kick caused that person pain. Then that creates knowledge that if I kick that person it will cause them pain. As far as I know, that is a reasonable definition for truth and knowledge. IF theres is no knowledge then how do you even know about logic, philosophy, math etc. To me, truth is only what works, what is verifiable, and that is why I don't actually believe in the metaphysical unless you define meta-physical as hallucinations or thoughts which actually can seem like they exist in the real world but are only subjective impositions of their own reality.
Just to clear up a misconception, everyone has the ability to hallucinate, think about what it'd be like to be sitting and driving a Porche, feeling the wheel and the rev of the motor and the sound of the engine purring. Thats a hallucination. IF people can fight over what god is, then it goes to prove that it doesn't exist in the real world and is only made up in peoples minds.

IF i said some latin and believed that my cereal turned into the body of Julius Caesar, I would be crazy, but If on sunday you eat a cracker and think its the body of christ.... well you are probably sane, intelligent and also a catholic. IF half the world still believes that the world is flat, it does not make it true, the same goes for religion, morals, values etc.

I definitely agree with what you have said. And when you say, "I don't actually believe in the metaphysical" you are basically saying the same thing as I said, but in a different, more condensed form. I had to give more of an explanation because most people are spiritual in some sense, and that spirituality is included in the "metaphysical."

Just out of curiosity, are you fan of Albert Camus? Because with the way you've described your beliefs, you remind me a lot of the main character from The Stranger.

 

[Fetzer]

Too bad I really philosophy but I wouldn't make sense and can't really follow if it isn't in French

 

[Mystique1721]

Too bad I really philosophy but I wouldn't make sense and can't really follow if it isn't in French

I'm jealous! I tried reading some Sartre, but it was too difficult to follow because of the translation to English...but then again I was 17 when I attempted it. But you must've read some Camus? What did you think of L'Étranger?

 

[Silver Incubus]

I definitely agree with what you have said. And when you say, "I don't actually believe in the metaphysical" you are basically saying the same thing as I said, but in a different, more condensed form. I had to give more of an explanation because most people are spiritual in some sense, and that spirituality is included in the "metaphysical."

Just out of curiosity, are you fan of Albert Camus? Because with the way you've described your beliefs, you remind me a lot of the main character from The Stranger.

Well, no, i haven't read Camus' THE STRANGER although I have heard bits and pieces of it. I do post and read the philosopher forum here on UM and thats probably why my beliefs are like that. I have learned a lot and changed much over the years as I began to understand what makes the most sense in reality. I used to be really into the occult(hey I'm a metal head its not like its not expected) but after a while it just seem like another dogmatic belief system that lead to nothing, like my experience with going to church as a child. Its not that I dismiss all ideas. I find the useful bits because like I said if it works then its useful. I do find that people who want to believe in things like reincarnation, spiritualism etc are morphing the old christian beliefs with new age or occultic because the same fear of "this is your only life and you get one shot to make it the best you can" is too scary to handle, its existential and some people have trouble with those kinds of things.

 

[Mystique1721]

Not just some people, but MANY people have trouble with existentialism. And I've been meaning to start posting on that philosophy forum, but when I skimmed through it, I saw that there is so much to read....and it's hard to find the time right now cuz I'm working on a few projects. But hopefully I'll get there. Oh and I really suggest you read The Stranger if you admire existentialism. Besides, the book is only 90 pages long

 

[Silver Incubus]

Yeah, now its just a matter of getting my ass out there and finding a copy of it. I will try some used bookstores in my area for a $1 book. I'd rather not spend my hard earned money on books, no matter how good. Hell I don't even rent or buy movies anymore.

 

[Mystique1721]

why would you rent or buy movies when there are other means of obtaining them? hehe.

 

[Silver Incubus]

heheh yeah exactly.

 

[Demonite]

My philosophy isnt exactly complete, for I am only 17, but at this point, I feel as if I am on the path to enlightenment. I have discovered what is truly important to me and I dont care what others think of me. Ive learnt not to act violently because of words and I feel that those who do are ignorant. I look at others my age and I really feel like I stand out. They all seem to be worried about what people think of them and it drives them crazy. They care for trivial possessions as I sit alone in my room writing music and discussing serious issues with my few near and dear friends. I really pat myself on the back for turning out this way whilst living in southern USA, in small town full of morons who will fight you if you look at them wrong and throw around the insult "faggot" or "fag" as if anyone who isnt them is homosexual.

 

[Mystique1721]

My philosophy isnt exactly complete, for I am only 17, but at this point, I feel as if I am on the path to enlightenment. I have discovered what is truly important to me and I dont care what others think of me. Ive learnt not to act violently because of words and I feel that those who do are ignorant. I look at others my age and I really feel like I stand out. They all seem to be worried about what people think of them and it drives them crazy. They care for trivial possessions as I sit alone in my room writing music and discussing serious issues with my few near and dear friends. I really pat myself on the back for turning out this way whilst living in southern USA, in small town full of morons who will fight you if you look at them wrong and throw around the insult "faggot" or "fag" as if anyone who isnt them is homosexual.

It's cool that you admire yourself. But being that you're only 17, you will have some mental changes in the years to come. And you remind me of another 17 year old that I know, who is actually very arrogant (not saying that you are) because he takes pride in the fact he tries to appear intellectual. He smokes cigars and drinks brandy and dresses kind of old-school. I hope you're not like that....but even if you are, whatever I guess. It could only be a phase at this point

 

[Swabs]

Nothing wrong with dressing old school, but @ Cigars and Brandy

 

[Altitudes]

My philosophy isnt exactly complete, for I am only 17, but at this point, I feel as if I am on the path to enlightenment. I have discovered what is truly important to me and I dont care what others think of me. Ive learnt not to act violently because of words and I feel that those who do are ignorant. I look at others my age and I really feel like I stand out. They all seem to be worried about what people think of them and it drives them crazy. They care for trivial possessions as I sit alone in my room writing music and discussing serious issues with my few near and dear friends. I really pat myself on the back for turning out this way whilst living in southern USA, in small town full of morons who will fight you if you look at them wrong and throw around the insult "faggot" or "fag" as if anyone who isnt them is homosexual.

That is very interesting, Demonite.

 

[Silver Incubus]

My philosophy isnt exactly complete, for I am only 17, but at this point, I feel as if I am on the path to enlightenment. I have discovered what is truly important to me and I dont care what others think of me. Ive learnt not to act violently because of words and I feel that those who do are ignorant. I look at others my age and I really feel like I stand out. They all seem to be worried about what people think of them and it drives them crazy. They care for trivial possessions as I sit alone in my room writing music and discussing serious issues with my few near and dear friends. I really pat myself on the back for turning out this way whilst living in southern USA, in small town full of morons who will fight you if you look at them wrong and throw around the insult "faggot" or "fag" as if anyone who isnt them is homosexual.

You know, I kinda had a similar experience whilst growing up. Now, much like you, I have a select bunch of friends who are intelligent enough to have meaningful conversations with, instead of inane chatter about nothing. Keep in mind that you never really 'know' anything, that there is always something to learn, and at the point where you are certain of yourself and things you know, be certain enough to be uncertain. Allow yourself to ask the questions like, 'what am I not noticing about what I know?' or 'What else could work?'. Stay away from ideas and beliefs that would limit you and what you can achieve, if someone can do it, then as long as your brain cells are there, you can learn it too. You may believe that violence is for the ignorant, but keep in mind that anything is useful. Violence can keep a loved one safe. Violence can prevent you from being killed. That is just one example how a belief that seems well thought out can be just as harmful as one you are attempting to not have. I live in a small town who are comprised mostly of 'morons' and to think of them this way is quite a harsh judgment. Realize that, yes there are people who make really bad decisions, people who's actions and words reflect something on the inside that they are dealing with, and so the only real difference is that while they are trapped by the social conditions and limiting beliefs that have been installed into their life by random events and unhelpful authority figures, that they really don't control their actions as much as you may think.

They are either motivated to do something because they are attracted towards it, or they are motivated to do something because they are trying to get away from isomething.

About the insults. It's kind of funny when you reframe that insult of "Fag". When I hear people say it now, it changes it to sound like a question, as if they are trying to find other homosexuals to join them in their quaint homosexual activities. Hell I heard of a study done to straight men where they hooked their cocks up to a device that measured their sexual arousal. Before the experiment they asked a series of questions and they found a certain percent of them where homophobes. The experiment was showing the straight men various erotic homosexual scenes to measure the arousal level. The straight non homophobic men had no arousal whereas the homophobics had arousal. What does this prove? Probably that if you have something like, "he's a fag" on you mind all the time, it means that you are thinking about it a lot and there is probably a good reason for it, because they are really Homosexuals and in denial.

 

[Fetzer]

Nothing wrong with dressing old school, but @ Cigars and Brandy

Those three things are good, just as a lot of things, nothing really the laught at except the fact that he takes pride into doing those thing.

 

[Lussi]

Interesting...

The most important thing is to be able to change your mind. And as Silver Incubus said, to be able to question yourself.
When I was your age, I wanted to be surrounded by smarter persons to talk about more intersting subjects, and to have a deeper relationship (well, i hope you understand me). But now (23) I just got rid off these persons (well, the ones I met in the University for instance), cuz they were worse than the others. I don't mean everybody but at least the ones I met. They just thought they were "the intellectuals" etc.. They were just good at school that's it. For instance: they all listened to the same kind of music that seemed more "adult" for them, they didn't drink much on weekends cause they said they already did it when they were "younger" etc... In fact, I don't care about what they like to do or not but they tend to judge a lot and to feel superior, that's what I HATE the most i think. There're tons of examples but all that to say that some people think they evolve, in a more mature/adult way, but they aren't.
I try not to judge people anymore because they aren't smart enough to talk about intellectual subjects etc... I just want to be surrounded by "good" people. I mean those who have a good heart and chill.

 

[Mystique1721]

About the insults. It's kind of funny when you reframe that insult of "Fag". When I hear people say it now, it changes it to sound like a question, as if they are trying to find other homosexuals to join them in their quaint homosexual activities. Hell I heard of a study done to straight men where they hooked their cocks up to a device that measured their sexual arousal. Before the experiment they asked a series of questions and they found a certain percent of them where homophobes. The experiment was showing the straight men various erotic homosexual scenes to measure the arousal level. The straight non homophobic men had no arousal whereas the homophobics had arousal. What does this prove? Probably that if you have something like, "he's a fag" on you mind all the time, it means that you are thinking about it a lot and there is probably a good reason for it, because they are really Homosexuals and in denial.

I don't know about this homosexual thing....it just seems so unnatural to me. I can understand love between 2 persons of the same sex, but sexual love and sexual attraction? It just doesn't seem right. You don't see male dogs going around and humping other male dogs. Nor do you see female cats calling to other female cats when they're in heat.

Seriously, I think recently, this whole "being gay" thing has come to be a trend. More kids are getting into it now simply because they're confused and think they can fit it this way, or it's one way for them to be somewhat "cool," at least within the gay scene itself.

Interesting...

The most important thing is to be able to change your mind. And as Silver Incubus said, to be able to question yourself.
When I was your age, I wanted to be surrounded by smarter persons to talk about more intersting subjects, and to have a deeper relationship (well, i hope you understand me). But now (23) I just got rid off these persons (well, the ones I met in the University for instance), cuz they were worse than the others. I don't mean everybody but at least the ones I met. They just thought they were "the intellectuals" etc.. They were just good at school that's it. For instance: they all listened to the same kind of music that seemed more "adult" for them, they didn't drink much on weekends cause they said they already did it when they were "younger" etc... In fact, I don't care about what they like to do or not but they tend to judge a lot and to feel superior, that's what I HATE the most i think. There're tons of examples but all that to say that some people think they evolve, in a more mature/adult way, but they aren't.
I try not to judge people anymore because they aren't smart enough to talk about intellectual subjects etc... I just want to be surrounded by "good" people. I mean those who have a good heart and chill.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I have also tried to hang out with only the "intellectual" people, and sooner or later you come to realize what arrogant douchebags they really are. You're completely right with that superiority complex they have. And all that bullshit about "oh I had my party days when I was younger, so I'm not going to drink now" is completely fake. Basically they're not big drinkers, nor are they party people, and they don't want to seem like dorks saying otherwise.

Now days all my friends are very "normal" people. Like they're not really smart (nor do they listen to good music, haha) but I like them because they're genuine. They have good hearts and good intentions, and don't necessarily go around trying to prove themselves to everybody.