Religion Amongst Metalheads

[CiG]

Not meant to change that, just rebut Ein's claim that atheism isn't a belief system. Yes it's a non-belief in theism but that doesn't mean atheism has no other beliefs within it.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm assuming you're referring to communism under Stalin, Mao, Sung, Castro, etc. and you're right, all countries under their rule identified as atheists and forcefully if I'm not mistaken. I also think it was replaced in unquestioning "worship" (for lack of a better word) of the state. It's rather ironic but I think it was the continuing need for people to place reliance in and feel meaning in their lives, even if it was in a real-life setting and not regarding metaphysics. Either way, it's kinda the dichotomy you mentioned earlier. Atheism doesn't work the same way that theism does. Non-belief can't be a belief system in and of itself.

 

[CiG]

Nah not referring to those examples, I tend to take the Christopher Hitchens position on those as being spurious examples because it simply replaced God with the glorious leader, like you say yourself it's not exactly atheistic as it is party and leader worship.

I'm just referring to an element within the atheist "community" that views religion and the religious as being a negative aspect of society. There's a value judgement incorporated in so much of atheism regarding religion that I don't think one can say atheism isn't a belief system and get away with it, just because at its core it is a non-belief in theism.

Just like anything else it comes with a set of presuppositions and moral/ethical value judgements.

 

[Matt]

Haven't read this thread at all, but I hate organized religion. Tend to fall in the agnostic side of things usually depending on the mood.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Nah not referring to those examples, I tend to take the Christopher Hitchens position on those as being spurious examples because it simply replaced God with the glorious leader, like you say yourself it's not exactly atheistic as it is party and leader worship.

I'm just referring to an element within the atheist "community" that views religion and the religious as being a negative aspect of society. There's a value judgement incorporated in so much of atheism regarding religion that I don't think one can say atheism isn't a belief system and get away with it, just because at its core it is a non-belief in theism.

Just like anything else it comes with a set of presuppositions and moral/ethical value judgements.

I don’t think it’s a wholly negative aspect of society but do I think we’d be better off without it? Yeah. The good moral values they do teach aren’t morals that can’t be taught with reason, and more effectively.

 

[CiG]

This is the kind of belief commonly found within atheism and I don't even necessarily disagree with it, but to say atheism isn't a belief system overlooks popular outlooks like yours.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say. If you're talking about me, personally, I don't believe morality is relative. Most atheists are the exact opposite in that line of thinking.

 

[CiG]

That humanity would be better off without religion is a commonly held atheistic belief, thus atheism isn't without beliefs - is what I'm trying to say. My main contention is that Ein said atheism isn't a belief system and I don't think that's true.

Many atheists obviously have other beliefs (political for example) so I'm not saying that any belief an atheist has is proof that atheism is a system of beliefs, but there are some specific beliefs many atheists have that seem specifically informed by their atheism, like the one you just expressed for example.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Well yeah, but that would just make atheism applicable to, well, any other non-theistic belief.

 

[CiG]

What do you mean exactly?

 

[Manic Ferocity]

I'm saying and I'm pretty much sure you're saying as well that atheism isn't a belief, therefore it can be applied to other ideologies regardless of how common or uncommon they might be.

 

[CiG]

I'm saying atheism has its own beliefs baked into it. It definitely can be applied to other beliefs, but as I said I think there are specific beliefs which are actually informed by atheism and are not merely separate beliefs that atheism is piggy-backing on.

If not for atheists, where would the belief that humanity would be better off without religion even come from? Sure ain't coming from religious people who make up pretty much everybody else, except for the agnostics who are usually too limp-wristed to even make such claims with any force.

Sure, there is a % out there who are non-religious yet spiritual and anti-organized religion but I don't think the belief that humanity would be better off without religion can really be credited as coming from them.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

And? Where did these ideals come from? Non-belief? It’s an oxymoron. There are also atheists that are all-inclusive and believe morality is relative. There is nothing that can be directly attributed to non-belief because it’s non-belief.

 

[PrincessHades]

That humanity would be better off without religion is a commonly held atheistic belief, thus atheism isn't without belief

That's not really true of atheism as a religious stance. On a socio-political level many atheists believe that religion is an ill to the world, however that isn't encapsulated by atheism itself. It isn't a belief system as much as it is a stance on theistic matters. Not that that's really relevant.

 

[CiG]

And?

And it rebuts this:

It’s important to remember that atheism isn’t a belief system.

Where did these ideals come from? Non-belief? It’s an oxymoron.

You tell me. The belief that mankind would be better off without religion surely didn't come from religious thinkers.

On a socio-political level many atheists believe that religion is an ill to the world, however that isn't encapsulated by atheism itself.

Who else holds such a belief other than atheists?

For the record I'm not saying atheists have a religious belief or a belief that is even comparable to religious belief. I'm saying atheism itself has some socio-political beliefs encapsulated within it, on some level.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Inverted burden of proof fallacy, atheists don't need proof or evidence to dispute religious claims that come with neither.

You're arguing against your own initial claim.

 

[CiG]

Pointing to a commonly repeated (in this very thread in fact, you and Hades both said it) belief that humanity would be better off without religion and saying this is a belief often found within atheism and almost never found within any other non-atheistic belief system isn't the same as saying God exists because I have faith, accept my claim on no evidence.

I'm not coming with zero evidence for my claim so I can't be arguing against my initial claim. That was just a lazy response, it takes very little to go from a basic atheistic position that religion offers no proof or evidence of its claims to and it does more harm than good for humanity.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Which I never said, anywhere.

Are you arguing just to argue man?

 

[CiG]

You implied it when you quoted my comment back to me, in which I stated that religious people are coming with zero proof or evidence, and claimed I was now doing what I said religious people do.

So yes, you did say it indirectly. I was about to ask you the same thing btw, but anyway let me ask you and @HadesRagnazrath this;

How do you two (and any other atheist who agrees that religion does more harm than good for society) get from the position of no-belief in theistic claims to humanity would be better off without religion?

 

[PrincessHades]

I don't believe in any higher power nor do I care if anyone else does. Its fine if people have their own theories about things but when you build up a set of morals or commandments around these beliefs, it gives certain people a lot of control.

Historically speaking, religion has divided and ostracized people for no real reason.