Religion Amongst Metalheads

[CiG]

Historically speaking, religion has divided and ostracized people for no real reason.

This is an atheistic claim very few religious people would agree with though, the "no real reason" bit. I doubt different groups of religious people would agree with your implication that there's no real difference between the different religions.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say atheism does have some beliefs contained within it that aren't simply the product of another ideology atheism is piggy-backing on.

If religion is a net negative for humanity and historical division is just one piece of evidence proving this, surely most people would agree with it no? Same with wars, violence and anything else the average atheist places at the feet of the religious as proof that religion is a net negative. The fact that most religious people not only disagree but would turn around and say "actually religion has done more good than harm for humanity" demonstrates that atheists make these arguments through a lens of belief that most other non-atheistic groups of people don't share.

 

[Einherjar86]

I slightly disagree with this. Atheism does have the belief that religion is a negative aspect of humanity baked into it and has, at times, been extrapolated into violence against the religious.

I think you're right that some atheists have this belief, but I don't agree that it makes atheism a belief system. A couple points:

1. Believing that atheism is a negative aspect of humanity is very different than believing in a god (or some spiritual equivalent). Some atheists believe that religion is a negative aspect of humanity because there's ample evidence that organized religious has caused a tremendous amount of pain and suffering. The key word is "evidence." Theists believe in a god (or spiritual equivalent) without, atheists claim, ample evidence. The empirical bases for evidence in theism and atheism are quite different. That said, you're right that many atheists believe organized religion is a bad thing.

2. Believing that organized religion is a bad thing might occur frequently among atheists, but it's not a structural component of atheism. There are plenty of atheists who believe religion actually has positive consequences (I'm one of them), and plenty of theists who believe that organized religion is dangerous.

Athe-ism, strictly speaking, is non-belief. That athe-ists have certain beliefs doesn't change this.

 

[CiG]

The evidence that religion does more harm than good only tends to convince atheists, this goes back to my point that these arguments mostly come from atheists and that this is an example of a atheistic belief.

plenty of theists who believe that organized religion is dangerous.

Not sure I believe this, but believing something to be dangerous isn't exactly the same as thinking it shouldn't exist or that it's a net negative.

Believing that atheism is a negative aspect of humanity is very different than believing in a god (or some spiritual equivalent).

Of course, never equated the two at any point. Not all belief is religious or spiritual.

I don't really see the belief that humanity would be better off without religion coming from anywhere other than atheists and atheism itself seems to be the catalyst for such a belief. Yes there's evidence that religion has done harm, but whether that harm outweighs or is outweighed by the good it has done seems entirely to do with whether you're an atheist or a religious person.

 

[Einherjar86]

That arguments against religion mostly come from atheists doesn't make those arguments atheistic. It looks like you're confusing atheism and anti-theism. That many atheists are antitheists is certainly true, but atheism isn't itself anti-theist.

Furthermore, there are, in fact, anti-religious theists. Atheism only describes the lack of belief in a god or spiritual system. It doesn't describe or denote any belief in the quality of religion or spiritual belief.

 

[CiG]

Doesn't anti-theism predominantly come from atheism in the first place? Seems like you're splitting hairs here.

As I asked previously, how does one go from the basic atheist position that theistic claims are unsubstantiated by evidence to what you're calling the anti-theist position that humanity would be better off without religion other than via atheism?

Atheism doesn't exist in a vacuum, it has a long history of associated politics, philosophy and so on. I readily admit that at its core atheism is non-belief in theistic claims (or some variation of this notion) but like anything else it accrues commonly held views which are directly extrapolated from the original position.

Anti-theism seems to me to be a blatant example of a belief which springs directly from atheism.

 

[Einherjar86]

Doesn't anti-theism predominantly come from atheism in the first place? Seems like you're splitting hairs here.

As I asked previously, how does one go from the basic atheist position that theistic claims are unsubstantiated by evidence to what you're calling the anti-theist position that humanity would be better off without religion other than via atheism?

Atheism doesn't exist in a vacuum, it has a long history of associated politics, philosophy and so on. I readily admit that at its core atheism is non-belief in theistic claims (or some variation of this notion) but like anything else it accrues commonly held views which are directly extrapolated from the original position.

Anti-theism seems to me to be a blatant example of a belief which springs directly from atheism.

But it's not a necessary component of atheism. That's the key here. You seem to be saying that anti-theism is predetermined by atheism--that is, atheism assumes anti-theism. But that's not true. One can be an atheist and not be anti-theist.

You're right that atheism doesn't exist in a vacuum, and many people who don't actively believe in god or hold any consistently active view on spirituality can feel entirely indifferent toward religion or religious people. Atheism doesn't determine one's belief toward organized religion.

 

[CiG]

Seems like a #NotAll argument to me. It's very rare to meet an atheist who doesn't think religion is a net negative for humanity and it's very rare to meet a religious person who doesn't think religion is a net positive.

While there are religious people out there who are anti-organized religion, I wouldn't say this means that support for organized religion isn't a key component of being religious. It's way too common to dismiss.

I didn't say anything about necessary components. Just that atheism isn't totally devoid of encapsulated beliefs.

 

[Einherjar86]

I didn't say anything about necessary components. Just that atheism isn't totally devoid of encapsulated beliefs.

I don't want to sound pedantic or repetitive, but I'm not sure how else to say it. You're commenting on beliefs that atheists hold, not atheism as a belief system--which is what you originally disputed:

My main contention is that Ein said atheism isn't a belief system and I don't think that's true.

Atheism is not a system of beliefs, but that doesn't mean atheists can't have beliefs.

Let me put it this way: someone can be an atheist and not be opposed (morally/ethically) to religion. Not holding such beliefs doesn't mean one isn't an atheist.

By contrast, a theist cannot claim to be a theist and yet simultaneously say they don't believe in god; or a Christian can't be a Christian and claim to not believe in Christ. The belief is part of the system.

 

[CiG]

Personally I think this is steadily becoming an outdated view of atheism, as there seem to be many beliefs sprouting out of atheism that seem to exist as solely related to atheism. If your starting position is essentially that religion perpetuates lies (preaching blatantly unproven claims) does this not inherently give atheism a negative view of religion? Can such negativity not very easily extrapolate to anti-theism? Again #NotAll but nothing is ever all anyway.

Doubt many people will agree with me but the way I see it, being an atheist implies more than just a disbelief or rejection of spurious supernatural claims. That may not technically be a belief system but there definitely seem to be several beliefs held by most atheists that don't seem to come from any source other than atheism.

 

[PrincessHades]

This is an atheistic claim very few religious people would agree with though, the "no real reason" bit. I doubt different groups of religious people would agree with your implication that there's no real difference between the different religions.

Religion in itself is arbitrary and man made; if two groups of people are held in conflict because of their religious views, then there is no real reason.

If religion is a net negative for humanity and historical division is just one piece of evidence proving this, surely most people would agree with it no? Same with wars, violence and anything else the average atheist places at the feet of the religious as proof that religion is a net negative. The fact that most religious people not only disagree but would turn around and say "actually religion has done more good than harm for humanity" demonstrates that atheists make these arguments through a lens of belief that most other non-atheistic groups of people don't share.

Now I understand what you are trying to say, but atheism is simply the lack of belief in the existence of a higher power. Some atheists believe that religion has done more good than harm by "keeping bad people in check", and some theists who do believe in a higher power without following any religion believe that religion has done more harm than good.

Basically atheism and theism are polar opposites on a spectrum that does nothing but show the level of one's belief in a deity. This is not indicative of what religion one follows.

 

[Einherjar86]

Personally I think this is steadily becoming an outdated view of atheism, as there seem to be many beliefs sprouting out of atheism that seem to exist as solely related to atheism. If your starting position is essentially that religion perpetuates lies (preaching blatantly unproven claims) does this not inherently give atheism a negative view of religion? Can such negativity not very easily extrapolate to anti-theism? Again #NotAll but nothing is ever all anyway.

Doubt many people will agree with me but the way I see it, being an atheist implies more than just a disbelief or rejection of spurious supernatural claims. That may not technically be a belief system but there definitely seem to be several beliefs held by most atheists that don't seem to come from any source other than atheism.

I do take your point, I'm just unconvinced that this means atheism is a system of beliefs. Maybe we need to devise a new term, "non-theism" or "itheism," if atheism is truly changing in definition to mean a set of beliefs opposed to theism. At its most basic, atheism simply means non-belief in god/spirituality. I'm not sure it's appropriate to say this is outdated; but if it is, then we need to make space for non-theistic individuals who aren't hostile toward theism, or who are at the very least apathetic toward it. Because they do exist, and that's really all that atheism (in its traditional sense) entails.

For what it's worth, Hitchens himself distinguishes between atheism and anti-theism. He admits he was both; but he implies that one can be atheistic and non-anti-theistic.

 

[CiG]

Unconvinced by an adherence to a strict dictionary definition of atheism personally, but in the end I'm just trying to advance a theory so I'm not surprised that nobody agrees with me, but the fact that nobody seems to be able to explain how they (or anybody else) would arrive at a position of anti-theism except via atheism makes me think I'm on to something here. I understand that atheism means non-belief in supernatural claims and will always mean that, but I reject the notion that atheism cannot accrue some small subset of beliefs commonly held in the "atheist community."

Perhaps what you say is correct though, maybe we need a new word because it seems undeniable to me that atheism for most atheists comes with a set of assumptions and value judgements about religion and its place in society.

 

[Master_Yoda77]

I remember caring about religious and having religious arguments...then I turned 16.

 

[PrincessHades]

I remember caring about religious and having religious arguments...then I turned 16.

16 was my religious heyday, I was on this religious debate site and I kept switching the religion on my profile back and forth from Satanism to Paganism. Eventually I got tired of that.

 

[CiG]

I remember caring about religious and having religious arguments...then I turned 16.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Conservatism is actually not all good dude.

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

some folks need religion to keep it together- they need some kind of deeper meaning/structure

"Religion is the wheelchair for the crippled mind"

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

I don’t really fault people for being religious because they mostly had it pounded into their skulls since birth. People that return to it because they’re afraid of dying are faggots though. Bobby Leibling is a massive faggot for this. The devil didn’t make you a piece of shit, you did.

"there is no merciful God rewarding you
there is no wrathful God punishing you
there is no Devil tempting you
there is only you and the choices you make
you're making horrible choices
observe yourself making those horrible choices
and learn to make better choices"
--secular rehab

 

[Blurry_Dreams]

@Matt
are you actually planning on reading this thread??
actually came out whole hell of a lot better than the philosopher's forum version of this thread

 

[Matt]

Most likely not.