Satan or Hussein, who's insane?

[MadeInNewJersey]

With some of the sentiments expressed in here, I see why some say we ask for it... not us personally, but the American way of thought.

Holier than thou, or in my opinion, unholier than thou....

Josh, which sentiments? I'm 1 of the only people here who are clearly in favor of eradicating threats to the U.S.A., beginning with Saddam Insane, yet I don't think I posted anything that could be labeled as "holier than thou." I backed up quite a bit of my statements with fact.

If you're not lumping me in with the "American way of thought," than what are you referring to?

 

[J.]

No fucking doubt!!!! !

Yeah, our barbecue fumes will eat those chemicals right up. If Houston is threatened, it's off to Huntsville or Nacogdoches I go. I highly doubt terrorist want to blow up Huntsville seeing that that is where most of Texas' prisons are. Nothing is in Nacogdoches except a college.

 

[JayKeeley]

I can't disagree that an attack on Iraq (or any other 'enemy' Middle Eastern nation) might incite additional terrorist attacks, but how can any of you think that they wouldn't happen anyway?

Of course the attacks would happen anyway. Bear in mind that the US is new to the whole terrorism game. Most other countries have already been through all this - just look at fucking Northern Ireland. But did anyone carpet bomb Belfast?

And war doesn't resolve the issue does it? I mean, how succesful was Grenada, Panama, Mogadishu, or Vietnam? Is war going to prevent other countries from building more 'weapons of mass destruction'? Stopping Saddam will do little in the fight against terrorism. In fact, I'd be surprised if anything changed at all from the terrorists point of view.

I'm just saying that the terrorism will become more hostile. 9/11 was a fluke with regards to the extent of the damage. No way did the terrorists expect for those towers to collapse.

So in regards to the next terrorist attacks, they will become more intense. You have not seen the results of a 'dirty bomb' yet, or indeed the capabilities of packing enough uridium and plutonium into a suitcase and drive it in through Canada. The IRA proved they had this capability 15 years ago - they just did not detonate.

 

[NAD]

Either way Bush is fucked this next election, as soon as he gave his "axis of evil" speech I said that there was no way he would win a second term.

If we don't go to war with Iraq, and then we suffer terrosist attacks, citizens will blame Bush for not acting soon enough, or at all.

If we do go to war with Iraq, and then we suffer terrorist attacks, citizens will blame Bush for inciting the attacks.

I hope that terrorist attacks do not occur, and that anti-Arab attitudes do not prevail. I wish everyone luck.

 

[JayKeeley]

Either way Bush is fucked this next election, as soon as he gave his "axis of evil" speech I said that there was no way he would win a second term.

Yeah, he fired that guy who wrote that speech.

If we don't go to war with Iraq, and then we suffer terrosist attacks, citizens will blame Bush for not acting soon enough, or at all.

Yes but I'm not convinced that Iraq and Terrorism go so neatly hand in hand.

The war against terrorism should involve filtering out the terrorists correct? How about a campaign to establish who the terrorists are that already live in the USA?

They are more of an immediate threat to us than Saddam. I'm not saying we drop the ball on Saddam, I'm just saying that he is not an immediate threat.

 

[Papa Josh]

Josh, which sentiments? I'm 1 of the only people here who are clearly in favor of eradicating threats to the U.S.A., beginning with Saddam Insane, yet I don't think I posted anything that could be labeled as "holier than thou." I backed up quite a bit of my statements with fact.

If you're not lumping me in with the "American way of thought," than what are you referring to?

The American way of thought to me is conquer or be conquered.. not everyone is an imminent threat. And I think Bush is given far too much credibility with those two words.... What intelligence is this derived from? The same responsible for 9/11? The same that allows DNA labs to submit incorrect analysis as evidence against an innocent person?

I'm not saying Hussein is an innocent person, he by no means is... but this pre-emptive bullshit is what terrorists want. Anyone recall The Sum Of All Fears? Hollywood, but not far fetched in the least?

And by the way 'gugs, some of your thoughts do worry me..

 

[Nate The Great]

The American way of thought to me is conquer or be conquered.. not everyone is an imminent threat. And I think Bush is given far too much credibility with those two words.... What intelligence is this derived from? The same responsible for 9/11? The same that allows DNA labs to submit incorrect analysis as evidence against an innocent person?

I'm not saying Hussein is an innocent person, he by no means is... but this pre-emptive bullshit is what terrorists want. Anyone recall The Sum Of All Fears? Hollywood, but not far fetched in the least?

And by the way 'gugs, some of your thoughts do worry me..

For the record I agree with Markgugs pretty much 100%.

I happen to think people like Papa Josh live by this motto: "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.":Smokin:

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

Heh, well, you're not the first.

*goes to answer door and sees men in black suits and dark sunglasses*

Believe me, I don't exactly like George Bush. But he's the leader of the country I live in, my family and loved ones live in, and I support fully. Besides, he's surrounded by far more intelligent people than most of the public realize.

@JayKeeley: The only reason you (and everyone else, myself included) don't know about what efforts the government is taking to root out and eliminate terrorist threats already within our borders is because that would be entirely counter-productive and detrimental to those efforts.

 

[haddsie]

I think that was fairly isolated to a few incidents and then blown out of proportion by the media, go figure (the liberal media, I might add).

For the record, there has been strong anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment in this country LONG before 9/11.

Though I understand your concerns...

WHat do you mean, you understand my concerns?? I have the same concerns that everyone should... that innocent people were being attacked in hate crimes (i.e. racism - pure ignorance). And I totally disagree that it was a few incidents that were blown out of proportion. Maybe there were only a few actual MURDERS, but there was more going that perhaps you did not hear about. You must at least have some Indian friends who rightfully nervous in the aftermath of 9/11.

 

[Nate The Great]

@JayKeeley: The only reason you (and everyone else, myself included) don't know about what efforts the government is taking to root out and eliminate terrorist threats already within our borders is because that would be entirely counter-productive and detrimental to those efforts.

I work in banking (as I've said before), and if you're not familiar with the EXTENSIVE actions and procedures the government has taken, you would be very surprised at how hard our government is working on this. I could tell you all kinds of details of the government's invovlement in all kinds of monetary transactions between individuals, businesses, etc. Unfortunately, I think I could risk comprimising my employers integrity to divulge such information. I won't go into detail on a public forum. Some of you probably know what I'm talking about anyway.

 

[haddsie]

Yes and no. I *do* absolutely refuse to alter my life and succumb to the wishes of terrorists. However, like I stated very clearly, future terrorist attacks would in all likelihood happen WITH or WITHOUT the United States attacking a Middle Eastern nation. Would you rather we sit back and wait for them to happen, or perhaps take out 1 of the world's greatest threats?

Most people forget that these people are TERRORISTS. They wield the weapon of fear and intimidation to create and incite "terror." Normal rules do NOT apply to them nor are they important as they seek to achieve their goals. They *hate* American ideals with a passion and will stop at nothing to take us down. Sorry, but it's "us" or "them" now.

I'm not saying that I think we should sit back and ask politely that no terrorists attack, I was just trying to understand what you meant.

And a point of clarification that I'm sure is stating the obvious, but what the hell.... Not all Middle Easterners are terrorists and not all terrorists are from the Middle East. Terrorists are fanatics. They don't fit into cookie-cutter geographic or religious categories. That's part of why it's so difficult to deal with them.

 

[lizard]

rest assured we have more irons in the fire than the public will ever be aware of.

and Ann Clwyd's piece in the Times of London today. Here's how it starts:

"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food ... on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son] personally supervise these murders."​

 

[JayKeeley]

@JayKeeley: The only reason you (and everyone else, myself included) don't know about what efforts the government is taking to root out and eliminate terrorist threats already within our borders is because that would be entirely counter-productive and detrimental to those efforts.

True.

But this nations security is also dependent on customs agents and officers who stand around x-ray machines all day chatting about tv or whatever. And they are dumb as pig shit. With all the millions of people coming in and out of airports everyday, one or two fanatics will slip through the net from time to time.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

WHat do you mean, you understand my concerns?? I have the same concerns that everyone should... that innocent people were being attacked in hate crimes (i.e. racism - pure ignorance). And I totally disagree that it was a few incidents that were blown out of proportion. Maybe there were only a few actual MURDERS, but there was more going that perhaps you did not hear about. You must at least have some Indian friends who rightfully nervous in the aftermath of 9/11.

Yup, had to pull 1 out of a bar before the locals got surly. So that's "what I mean, I understand your concerns."

And like it or not, it was barely a blip on the radar. More idiocy is seen daily at every local high school than was seen in the entire few months following 9/11. Maybe you were very sensitive to it, and it seemed greater to you. Kind of like when you break a bone and you all-of-a-sudden notice people in casts.

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

For everyone's benefit:

Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Terrorist: The systematic use of terror, especially as a means of coercion.

 

[haddsie]

Yup, had to pull 1 out of a bar before the locals got surly. So that's "what I mean, I understand your concerns."

And like it or not, it was barely a blip on the radar. More idiocy is seen daily at every local high school than was seen in the entire few months following 9/11. Maybe you were very sensitive to it, and it seemed greater to you. Kind of like when you break a bone and you all-of-a-sudden notice people in casts.

It was not a "blip on the radar" from where I sat. I don't know how you could be overly sensitive to something like that. If hate crimes are happening in high schools on a daily basis, then that's horrible too. The fact is, I don't think it really went away. I was watching some comedian just a week or two ago who was doing a bit about not wanting to get on an airplane with anyone who looked like they could possibly be from the Middle East. This guy's act was totally offensive and the crowd was laughing hysterically. Most Americans don't know the first thing about that area of the world or its cultures... it's easier to follow the general rule that Muslim/Arab/Middle Eastern = evil.

 

[JayKeeley]

Most Americans don't know the first thing about that area of the world or its cultures... it's easier to follow the general rule that Muslim/Arab/Middle Eastern = evil.

I heard someone the other day talking about our war against Afghanistan. WRONG - how easily people forget. It was a war against the Taliban. Very different.

But anyway, before muslims, it was communists. Once the Soviet Union collapsed, the threat disappeared and the paranoia stopped. Maybe the same will happen when the war against Iraq is over and race relations can start to rebuild. Or maybe not.

And of course a terrorist can look like anyone. Even if they are a 'muslim', that doesn't automatically make them an arab - and vice versa. But I state the obvious....

 

[NAD]

*goes to answer door and sees men in black suits and dark sunglasses*

Dude don't take any of the candy they offer. I did once and boy was that a looooong winter!!!

@JayKeeley: No I do not think that Saddam = terrorism, but the voting American public will find whatever link they want, and terrorist organizations (or singular terrorists) may claim "This is because of what America did to Iraq!" Conversely, political hawks may claim future attacks were the fault of not dealing with Iraq efficiently.

The scary thing about terrorism is that it can just take one nutjob to light a fuse, and I'm sure that many of us have witnessed completely lax security at any number of large public gatherings.

 

[JayKeeley]

@JayKeeley: No I do not think that Saddam = terrorism,

I know - sorry, I was just being devils advocate.

but the voting American public will find whatever link they want, and terrorist organizations (or singular terrorists) may claim "This is because of what America did to Iraq!" Conversely, political hawks may claim future attacks were the fault of not dealing with Iraq efficiently.

Someone made an analogy on the radio the other day about Al Capone. When he was put away, he was put away on tax evasion. He was never convicted of all the murders, bootlegging etc. He escaped those charges. However, everyone knew that he was behind the murders etc. Justice was served in one way or another.

It's the same with Saddam. We cannot prove it, and the inspections can take forever. If Saddam does not want them to find his arsenal, then he can keep them at bay with ease. Iraq is his turf after all. So we get him on something else. Even if it's concocted evidence, we all know he's guilty of something. How about gassing 300,000 kurds?

The scary thing about terrorism is that it can just take one nutjob to light a fuse, and I'm sure that many of us have witnessed completely lax security at any number of large public gatherings.

Yes. And what will that fuse ignite next time?

 

[NAD]

So we get him on something else. Even if it's concocted evidence, we all know he's guilty of something. How about gassing 300,000 kurds?

That wouldn't be a bad angle for Bush to go after, but for whatever reason he really isn't. Funny because Clinton had no problem attacking Milosevic because of ethnic cleansing but Bush can't get support to attack Saddam who is even worse. I think he took too long deciding whether or not to attack Iraq, if he would have declared war 4 months ago it might be an easier road. See what happens when you try to go through the UN? "YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS LARRY!?!?" (that would be good in the movie quote thread )