Science cant prove everything?
- Thread starter Notuern
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STINNETT
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Newtonian physics versus Einstein would have gained you more ground here, but I see what you're getting at.
Sure, scientific knowledge is regularly revised and approximations are narrowed down further and further. Everything goes through this before it becomes accepted. My earlier comments were aimed at this train of thought.
Concerning the relatively trivial items that you've listed - I've never read about any such thing where it was implied that the scientific community as a whole had reached an unequivocal proof. It's usually just a report based on a singular study, or a particular institution's research aimed at giving people food for thought. It's not presented as universally accepted fact among the scientific community. Such things are a function of the media and the demands of society more so than a product of faithful scientific progress. Surely you can see the difference...?
STINNETT
Bad / Nationwide
Something to think about.
Newtonian gravity was absolutely true and was "proven" many times over. Nobody would be in error for relying upon it today for any sort of calculation they may want to make, provided they are operating within certain boundaries, and many do.
Was it the absolute truth about how gravity actually works? Of course not. It wasn't even presented as such - but it was a useful theory for understanding gravity and it allowed us to advance and thus pave the way for a much deeper understanding in the years to come. Einstein's general relativity will most likely be overturned for yet another theory sometime in the future - but in the meantime do we dismiss it because we can't consider it proven?
If you are of the mindset that the only thing to consider is the ultimate conclusion then perhaps nothing can or will ever be proven. But I tend to look at the word "proof" from a realistic and practical point of view and I do not suffer from such pessimism.
Newtonian gravity was absolutely true and was "proven" many times over. Nobody would be in error for relying upon it today for any sort of calculation they may want to make, provided they are operating within certain boundaries, and many do.
Was it the absolute truth about how gravity actually works? Of course not. It wasn't even presented as such - but it was a useful theory for understanding gravity and it allowed us to advance and thus pave the way for a much deeper understanding in the years to come. Einstein's general relativity will most likely be overturned for yet another theory sometime in the future - but in the meantime do we dismiss it because we can't consider it proven?
If you are of the mindset that the only thing to consider is the ultimate conclusion then perhaps nothing can or will ever be proven. But I tend to look at the word "proof" from a realistic and practical point of view and I do not suffer from such pessimism.
At this point we have a pretty good handle on why time travel is infeasible right now and how black holes play around. We're finding a lot of reason to suspect that dark matter and energy play with our heads a bit (note: if we had found it already it wouldn't be appropriate to call it 'dark' matter, now, would it?), and nobody hates physicists enough to make them sit through pop music.
Time is considered to be the 'fourth dimension' in relativity and things following it... but if you want to see how many people actually know anything at all, try getting someone to explain to you what a dimension is.
Hint: it's NOT an alternate reality that you can jump into and fuck alien chicks. No matter how much you REALLY want it.
Erm, not quite... string theory, while fucking cool as shit, is currently untestable and as a result is not science.
Also, guys, keep two things in mind...
First, anyone who claims that science 'proves' things is either ignorant or selling you something. Science can fail to disprove things for a fucking long time, and that's good enough for most cases, but nobody claims to have 'proofs' in the strict and perfect sense.
Second, it's a constantly-growing body of knowledge - there's a big difference between what we haven't proven yet and what we can't prove at all. In mathematics there are things that can be proven unprovable (batshit as it sounds...) but in science there's just more knowledge coming in. I'd be hesitant to say that anything is unprovable scientifically if it is well-defined - and science doesn't need to say balls about gods until substantial evidence for their existence and necessity is introduced.
Jeff
Zuranthus
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- Feb 13, 2008
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well science is a lot broader than just the empirical aspect...many still argue about what can be called a science & what can't, & i've never been one to have a stick up my ass about things, so i'll leave this part of the topic here
i guess this is a glass half full, half empty type of thing
i guess this is a glass half full, half empty type of thing
Yeah, I do math because I like having things that are absolutely true and not restricted to that whole reality thing...
Jeff
Jeff
Erkan
mr-walker.bandcamp
Death.
I guess that's one thing that cannot be "proven" by science or anyone or anything. How would you go about it? Kill someone and see if they live through death to come back and tell about it?
Afaik, nobody has experienced death since death is not a part of life, thus you never experience death when you die. But at the same time, ALL our thoughts about how death are, are just that. Thoughts, our thoughts, our speculations. Death cannot be measured, how would you measure it? Shoot someone and watch him fall? Still doesn't give any information about death what so ever.
I'm not some indian spiritual techno-viking chieftain FYI, death is just an interesting subject to think about and I sometimes think about the so called "experience" of death. The general belief of how death is, is that when you die you're gone. You EXIT THE FUCKING REALITY and go into NOTHING. Nothing is also a very interesting subject that I could think about for hours. Nothing.... a place that doesn't exist where nothing is there. Now most of you who read this probably imagine just a black screen infront of your eyes, that's how most would imagine nothingness I guess. But that's wrong, if there is black, there is something, so you'd have to imagine the blackness gone as well and try to imagine absolute nothingness. I've been close to "understanding" and "feeling" nothingness a few times, but each time I got close, my head started spinning and I got really fucking freaked out. Almost drove me crazy so I forced myself to stop thinking about nothing (haha, as ironic as that sounds!).
True story
I guess that's one thing that cannot be "proven" by science or anyone or anything. How would you go about it? Kill someone and see if they live through death to come back and tell about it?
Afaik, nobody has experienced death since death is not a part of life, thus you never experience death when you die. But at the same time, ALL our thoughts about how death are, are just that. Thoughts, our thoughts, our speculations. Death cannot be measured, how would you measure it? Shoot someone and watch him fall? Still doesn't give any information about death what so ever.
I'm not some indian spiritual techno-viking chieftain FYI, death is just an interesting subject to think about and I sometimes think about the so called "experience" of death. The general belief of how death is, is that when you die you're gone. You EXIT THE FUCKING REALITY and go into NOTHING. Nothing is also a very interesting subject that I could think about for hours. Nothing.... a place that doesn't exist where nothing is there. Now most of you who read this probably imagine just a black screen infront of your eyes, that's how most would imagine nothingness I guess. But that's wrong, if there is black, there is something, so you'd have to imagine the blackness gone as well and try to imagine absolute nothingness. I've been close to "understanding" and "feeling" nothingness a few times, but each time I got close, my head started spinning and I got really fucking freaked out. Almost drove me crazy so I forced myself to stop thinking about nothing (haha, as ironic as that sounds!).
True story
STINNETT
Bad / Nationwide
Death.
I guess that's one thing that cannot be "proven" by science or anyone or anything. How would you go about it? Kill someone and see if they live through death to come back and tell about it?
Afaik, nobody has experienced death since death is not a part of life, thus you never experience death when you die. But at the same time, ALL our thoughts about how death are, are just that. Thoughts, our thoughts, our speculations. Death cannot be measured, how would you measure it? Shoot someone and watch him fall? Still doesn't give any information about death what so ever.
I'm not some indian spiritual techno-viking chieftain FYI, death is just an interesting subject to think about and I sometimes think about the so called "experience" of death. The general belief of how death is, is that when you die you're gone. You EXIT THE FUCKING REALITY and go into NOTHING. Nothing is also a very interesting subject that I could think about for hours. Nothing.... a place that doesn't exist where nothing is there. Now most of you who read this probably imagine just a black screen infront of your eyes, that's how most would imagine nothingness I guess. But that's wrong, if there is black, there is something, so you'd have to imagine the blackness gone as well and try to imagine absolute nothingness. I've been close to "understanding" and "feeling" nothingness a few times, but each time I got close, my head started spinning and I got really fucking freaked out. Almost drove me crazy so I forced myself to stop thinking about nothing (haha, as ironic as that sounds!).
True story
It's easy for me to imagine the nothingness which follows death. It will be exactly the same thing you experienced before you were born.
But what is there to prove about death? Death means to stop living and people stop living all the time. Are you actually talking about what comes after death? If you ask me, there is no reason to think that anything does. It's just wishful thinking.
- Oct 20, 2007
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Id like to turn that thing around: Life.
No science today has explained WHY or HOW we can be alive, and what really separates alive from dead(Just because you are dead, it doesnt have to mean that there is something wrong with your heart or brain.).
So basically, we know whats in the body, and how it works, but it still doesnt say shit about our consciousness.
Now we are talking philosophy, "What is the essence of nothingness?", which is really interesting, but not on subject really.
But I have to say that ive done the same thing: Tried to "meditate" myself in to the feeling/perception of nothingness, but just like you, i got f-ing terrified of that feeling i got and had to stop. o,0
And trust me, i don't believe in "new-age bullshit", and i am not easily spooked either, but that feeling just fingerbangs your brain so hard its insane!
Erkan
mr-walker.bandcamp
Seriously? How interesting, then you probably know exactly what feeling I'm talking about. It is pretty fucking scary when you "come close" to the uhm.... resolution? I still wonder what I would "discover" if I kept going but hell no, I'm not doing that shit again. The world is crazy enough already, one more crazy person on the streets wouldn't be a good thing for anybody
But yeah I guess you are sort of correct about life. But as opposed to death, we can "measure" life. We know we exist, we know we are here. We can conduct whatever experiments we want, we can think and speculate. We can communicate with each other. What can we do when we are dead? Nobody knows. And that's what I meant by science not being able to prove anything about death. Science cannot say f.ex that we cannot communicate with each other in death. It can also not say that we CAN communicate in death. I guess death just isn't scientific now is it?
I do have a hard time with the whole nothingness concept, so I would "like" to believe death isn't death as we think it is, like dying and just disappearing. It's not that I'm afraid, it's just that all that is logic in my mind completely collapses and collides when I try to grasp the fact that something can escape the whole reality! I mean, it's reality for fuck's sake, how can you stop being a part of reality?
SORRY! Sorry I strayed off the path, it's just too interesting to talk about this with others
Now back on topic: Can science prove ... can't come up with anything right now :S
deanbailey
O.C.D Member
Same goes for the principles of lying,
Thank you for smoking:
Joey Naylor: ...so what happens when you're wrong?
Nick Naylor: Whoa, Joey I'm never wrong.
Joey Naylor: But you can't always be right...
Nick Naylor: Well, if it's your job to be right, then you're never wrong.
Joey Naylor: But what if you are wrong?
Nick Naylor: OK, let's say that you're defending chocolate, and I'm defending vanilla. Now if I were to say to you: 'Vanilla is the best flavour ice-cream', you'd say...
Joey Naylor: No, chocolate is.
Nick Naylor: Exactly, but you can't win that argument... so, I'll ask you: so you think chocolate is the end all and the all of ice-cream, do you?
Joey Naylor: It's the best ice-cream, I wouldn't order any other.
Nick Naylor: Oh! So it's all chocolate for you is it?
Joey Naylor: Yes, chocolate is all I need.
Nick Naylor: Well, I need more than chocolate, and for that matter I need more than vanilla. I believe that we need freedom. And choice when it comes to our ice-cream, and that Joey Naylor, that is the defintion of liberty.
Joey Naylor: But that's not what we're talking about
Nick Naylor: Ah! But that's what I'm talking about.
Joey Naylor: ...but you didn't prove that vanilla was the best...
Nick Naylor: I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right...*continued*.
EDIT: @ Gojira: Then again, who proved that "nothing" is what's happening when you die? Perhaps you do experience 'nothing' or you do have outer body experiences or do, in fact, "go to heaven/hell" lol It's pretty much all just fairy tales and probably, will always be.
Death.
I guess that's one thing that cannot be "proven" by science or anyone or anything. How would you go about it? Kill someone and see if they live through death to come back and tell about it?
Afaik, nobody has experienced death since death is not a part of life, thus you never experience death when you die. But at the same time, ALL our thoughts about how death are, are just that. Thoughts, our thoughts, our speculations. Death cannot be measured, how would you measure it? Shoot someone and watch him fall? Still doesn't give any information about death what so ever.
I'm not some indian spiritual techno-viking chieftain FYI, death is just an interesting subject to think about and I sometimes think about the so called "experience" of death. The general belief of how death is, is that when you die you're gone. You EXIT THE FUCKING REALITY and go into NOTHING. Nothing is also a very interesting subject that I could think about for hours. Nothing.... a place that doesn't exist where nothing is there. Now most of you who read this probably imagine just a black screen infront of your eyes, that's how most would imagine nothingness I guess. But that's wrong, if there is black, there is something, so you'd have to imagine the blackness gone as well and try to imagine absolute nothingness. I've been close to "understanding" and "feeling" nothingness a few times, but each time I got close, my head started spinning and I got really fucking freaked out. Almost drove me crazy so I forced myself to stop thinking about nothing (haha, as ironic as that sounds!).
True story
Correct, in that science can't prove a word. However, advances in neuroscience are making it easier to get a picture of what happens around death.
Oh, and... generally, when you want to pose a question to a scientist, you give an actual specific *question*, not a word. Ask more specific questions and you'll get a whole lot of answers. Posts like this are simply bonkers because they're just vague and devoid of an actual question - and you're again getting "science doesn't play with it much" mixed up with "science can't prove it", which is simply incredibly annoying to anyone who sees the progress we make daily with finding new things - but if you actually start going for details that can be objectively analyzed you'll get a lot.
Jeff
- Oct 20, 2007
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Seriously? How interesting, then you probably know exactly what feeling I'm talking about. It is pretty fucking scary when you "come close" to the uhm.... resolution? I still wonder what I would "discover" if I kept going but hell no, I'm not doing that shit again. The world is crazy enough already, one more crazy person on the streets wouldn't be a good thing for anybody
What if you die when you reach the resolution?
(It sure felt like you would!
)Haha, im already crazy.. ive been compared with Cartman by most people ive met in my life. ;X
(Cartman is a South Park character, for you guys who lived in a cave the past 10 years.).
But yeah I guess you are sort of correct about life. But as opposed to death, we can "measure" life. We know we exist, we know we are here. We can conduct whatever experiments we want, we can think and speculate. We can communicate with each other. What can we do when we are dead? Nobody knows. And that's what I meant by science not being able to prove anything about death. Science cannot say f.ex that we cannot communicate with each other in death. It can also not say that we CAN communicate in death. I guess death just isn't scientific now is it?
No, we cant measure life, that was my point, but its still possible to prove its existence. o,0
I honestly dont know what to think about death, but ive always envisioned hell as being completely froze in that very same moment you died.
Example: You get shot in the head, time "freezes" and you cant move or communicate with anyone, and that you will spend eternity in that very moment, with nothing but your consciousness(Not that i believe in any form of religion or afterlife.).
I think we all really would like an eternal afterlife in "cloud city", but i still belive it just turns "black".
Meh, i guess we all find out sooner or later!
Damn i like to think about these things(Philosophical stuff.).
- Oct 20, 2007
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Not to be "that 80's guy" again, but how do you ask a more specific question about death?
Whats more to death is there then dying!?
But sure, there has been allot of philosophy involved with these questions, and philosophy does not mix well with science. ;P
Asking things like 'what processes will the brain go through before shutting down' or 'how are things perceived when dying' could eventually be answerable, at least. I can't say much else - one of the biggest things in science is knowing what questions to ask.
I do like Richard Feynman's last words, though...
Jeff
I do like Richard Feynman's last words, though...
Richard Feynman said:
Jeff
Erkan
mr-walker.bandcamp
Yeah but those things are not a part of death. You are still alive while "dying", but when you are dead, as in completely dead and you can't be any more dead, that's where things get interesting and it's hard to ask a question about something that "doesn't exist".
Erkan
mr-walker.bandcamp
Goddamn, that is one hell of a boring way to "spend time". Let's hope your hypothesis is not correct!
edit: Typoooooooeeezzz....
abyssofdreams
knows what you think.
It's getting there - I have no doubt that it'll eventually be testable, but I hate seeing such wonderful math getting ruined by reality.
Jeff
Jeff
abyssofdreams
knows what you think.
We just need some Nibblers to shit massive amounts of antimatter and we may have a starting point
