Should people stick to their own kind?

[PhantoMPhones]

lol, imho freedom can be just as enslaving as dictatorship. As a weak example that pertains only to this discussion;

On one hand we have the 'forced' programming, autonomous responses etc, which dictate we MUST accept, deal with, even like, or take second chair to, in this case gay rights, minority rights, opressed whites (to be a little more personal) sex driven pop culture etc etc etc which we consider to be making us into 'preprogrammed devices'. However on the other hand, we have 'freedom' that comes into play within those 'forced' rules etc, and we as the populous are then the only ones left to blame for it all, because we neither object, nor take provisions against the danger of mob mentality, we even facilitate it and the blind leading of said mob. Thusly it is a lose lose situation for us the so called 'deviants', and a perfect situation for the government/powerful. In effect the world is run by a faceless government/corporations (including media), and to an equally as oppressive but more personal, mass of uneducated, insecure, weak, 'easily amused by shiny things', group of neanderthalistic DRONES. Who by the way, respond most assuredly to carnal stimuli (violence and sex) and monetary gain, completely failing to realize that those are precisely the tools, precisely the DISTRACTIONS being used to manipulate them.

And honestly, I'm sick of feeling like I'm bad or 'messed up' for actually choosing a side, and drawing some lines for myself. Racism for example, is a label to a concept, an ideal with moral implications, that perhaps I don't share. I think its absolutely ludicrous that people can go off like depraved drunken little unaccountable bastards, bringing our 'culture' into it, destroying it and yet when I have a belief that I do not force on others, I am ridiculed and persecuted for by those very same 'people'

Perhaps I've lost some people through this, I tend to babble and rant, though it would be nice if someone actually agreed with me. ^.^

 

[Blowtus]

Nothing dictates what you *must* do - that way of thinking is just making excuses for action you find easy but poor.

 

[razoredge]

You didnt loose me one bit and all I can say is... at last someone that makes me no longer the only man standing on this particular rock around this place... and most likely expresses themself better.

 

[razoredge]

Nothing dictates what you *must* do - that way of thinking is just making excuses for action you find easy but poor.

However this looses me ? I interpret it as saying that no one responds to the extreme social pressure. Or that no one needs too, or that if one does they are making excuses. Influence may possible be the largest molding factor of the mind set, I fail to see how that relates to excuses or does not carry power of "must".

 

[PhantoMPhones]

You didnt loose me one bit and all I can say is... at last someone that makes me no longer the only man standing on this particular rock around this place... and most likely expresses themself better.

^.^ I'm glad

Nothing dictates what you *must* do - that way of thinking is just making excuses for action you find easy but poor.

Which is precisely why the word 'forced' is contained within quotation marks. Although I would challenge precisely what you said and say that there are many a law legal and social that dictate what we MUST do, under threat of punishment, prosecution, and/or persecution. Your post is kind of vague so the last bit requires a bit more explanation if you would kindly do so.

Influence may possible be the largest molding factor of the mind set, I fail to see how that relates to excuses or does not carry power of "must".

Precisely. Point well made. To add I will say that, sure you could live your life in any way that pleases you, but does that change any number of variables such as the law, the way people will react to you, and accepted social norms that come from where exactly? How far in life do you think a lot of people who reject accepted norms and laws would get, without being thrown in jail or ostracized? Not to mention what kind of society we would end up with. It may sound good on paper, but like many other things, when applied practically there is a high probability of the theory going straight out the window. The problem is that when most people form an opinion as such they continue to view it subjectively from WITHIN the problem itself, rather than looking at the problem objectively from the outside. I know a lot of people who can't see past what is fed to them, and what their eyes, or for the love of god another person is telling them. Its so......corporeal. BAAAAAAAAA, thats a good sheep, fall in line.

The greatest control is one in which the people defend. We are born into this, and not very many people ACTUALLY see past it. (anyone ever tell you 'thats the way it is and you can't do anything about it, thats life, thats reality'?) There are even those who think they see past it, but really really don't get it. Believe it or not, people are conscious at different levels, as in our level of awareness in reality differs person to person. A prime example I found was zeitgeist. Sure it had some good points, but if you really take some time to think about the way they are delivering the information to you, even amongst a mountain of truth, they are able to lead your direction of thought in a format that serves the authors purpose, by making vague connections with no real evidence other than 'apparent' coincidences in language (laughable at best) and by drawing conclusions based on previous conclusions they've drawn. Its quite a clever way of getting you to think what they want you to think. Yet many 'mundane people' watch it and all of a sudden 'OMG MY EYES HAVE BEEN OPENED'..... please...You've bought into yet another piece of the puzzle that is social control.

 

[razoredge]

Good post, I have lived my life mostly non compliant except for that which I agree with but as you said you get alot of ostracism, but then thats the way it is... lol. I used "thats the way it is" as an example there because I do use those phrases you mentioned alot so I feel that, at times they are applicable.

Zeitgeist - the part of that I most connected with was the aspects of the banks and their minipulation. One would be hard pressed to get me to see things any differently and not becasue of Zeitgeist but because I always felt that way, only I reach further into other entities as well, all placed in my catagory of puppet masters.

There is benefit to the opening of peoples eyes through these kinds of things, however the problem is when some cant still exhibit independent thought and it happens on both sides of viewpoints.

 

[Blowtus]

Phantom -
If the 'free sheep' decide they don't like your 'free actions' then they exercise their 'freedom' to get together and try to alter the consequences of your actions such that the actions hold less appeal.

The freedom you speak of seems to be that freedom wherein you are able to do what you wish but not the 'sheep'.

Personally I find 'freedom' a shitful, often useless term. A society with fewer values does not seem necessarily 'more free' to me - though I am in favour of greater education and less regulation, which corresponds with some peoples idea of freedom.

Your wish to be able to treat minorities differently (I think?) with fewer negative repercussions, is a little paradoxical imho, as that wish places you yourself in a minority that finds itself negatively affected by the current social structure. In some sense the role you wish is simply reversed, as you do not have the power to take the upper hand.

 

[Carey]

General interaction, more or less.

Also.
Yes. I admit there are many misunderstandings between I and some other cultures I work with at work or enconter in the public. Its happened several times to me. Misunderstandings as in like "I wasn't supposed to make direct eye contact with a certain race apparently", or "smiling can be considered rude", or "small talk/humor is not appropriate" and so on.
These other groups seem to think certain manners/behaviours should be done in a certain way but honestly, thats not I how see it. Frustrating. What I get for living in a city..

I advice you to read "End of History" by Frensis Fukuyama. You will find why these misuderstandings occure and, I hope, you'll come to conclusion how to solve such problems in general.

 

[Einherjar86]

Which is precisely why the word 'forced' is contained within quotation marks. Although I would challenge precisely what you said and say that there are many a law legal and social that dictate what we MUST do, under threat of punishment, prosecution, and/or persecution.

I don't really have a side to this. If you reread my posts, I'm playing both ends of the spectrum.

On one hand, I believe that social restrictions do limit our freedoms, due the institution of potential reprimands. Even certain things which are considered taboo, that may not be illegal, prevent people from exercising all their options because they simply don't want to become the next social pariah.

However, on the other hand, people are still ultimately free to make their own choices. Another question rises from the problem of whether or not we should let these threats of punishment control our actions if we believe them to be criminal themselves. John Locke said (in a very shortened version) that citizens of a democratic nation were responsible for re-establishing government if they felt the present one acted criminally. So, are we acting irrationally when we succumb to the limitations of government restriction; or would making free choices in spite of the governmental restrictions be irrational?

*By "government restrictions" I'm referring to the restrictions being spoken of in this thread; not all government restrictions. I don't want to open up that can of worms.

 

[PhantoMPhones]

However, on the other hand, people are still ultimately free to make their own choices. Another question rises from the problem of whether or not we should let these threats of punishment control our actions if we believe them to be criminal themselves. John Locke said (in a very shortened version) that citizens of a democratic nation were responsible for re-establishing government if they felt the present one acted criminally. So, are we acting irrationally when we succumb to the limitations of government restriction; or would making free choices in spite of the governmental restrictions be irrational?

the problem is that the majority defends said controls. You'll never get enough people to make a necessary change, and part of this is because those 'controls' keep people too busy with their own problems (ie money), and many people do not believe there is a problem, they are happy to go to their malls and watch MTV. Its too fargone at this point, or perhaps we aren't quite 'there' yet. At any rate this whole thing is one big paradox/vicious cycle. There is no real answer for the most part, except global extinction.. Well... human extinction.. I'm quite comfortable with the idea myself, humans had their chance and look whats happened. But too many people like this existence, or are comfortable in the 'fact' that 'this is the way things are, thats life'. I notice Im now repeating things which at least circumstantially supports the idea of a vicious cycle.

meh...

Your wish to be able to treat minorities differently (I think?) with fewer negative repercussions, is a little paradoxical imho, as that wish places you yourself in a minority that finds itself negatively affected by the current social structure. In some sense the role you wish is simply reversed, as you do not have the power to take the upper hand.

I would like to clear this up now and say that its not that i want to be able to 'treat minorities differently', i just want the ability to treat EVERYONE according to my own beliefs, and grant the same freedom to others. (dont take that statement and run with it because obviously if i feel like killing someone because of my beliefs we run into a whole other kettle of fish) Whether that includes geographical/religious slurs or not makes no real difference. To me, this whole racism thing is just a cash grab, and an attempt for the creation of new power. another distraction to keep people busy fighting amongst themselves rather than looking at bigger issues.

as for everyones poor ass attempts at equality, i find it absolutely hilarious that instead of making everyone the same which is WHAT EQUALITY means, we have things like minority law, and labels such as 'racism', and 'hate crimes'... its a fucking scam. with things like this, there will NEVER be equality, just another illusion of equality.

"whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man, is either a fool or a coward, whoever cannot take care of himself without that law, is both"
Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[razoredge]

Phantomphones -Holy crap, I could say "words right from my mouth" but Im not so tactful.

Things I'd like to mention - we loose our freedom... at times... to make "free choice" due to social pressure or peer pressure or whatever, so much pressure today. As was said its all a big distraction to keep us tongue tied and questioning ourselves.

The majority in so many instances now is like 52%/48% and in reality, in the States we were supposed to be set up so that a majority could NOT over run the views, feelings or needs of a lesser percentage. Didnt work out that way did it ?

Lastly I see now at the top of the page we have this social pressure and propagandy issue that pops up. Now its gone but it was just there. it said "will white people ever get over race?" The most amusing thing about that is, every nationality/race has a racism issue. Its only most productive to thow it all against "the white race" because we have the most to give away. Its natural to identify with ones own kind, even outside of skin color, the opposite is an act of rebelion or other deeply rooted issues. ** Please note I said opposite, not acceptance.

 

[Blowtus]

as for everyones poor ass attempts at equality, i find it absolutely hilarious that instead of making everyone the same which is WHAT EQUALITY means, we have things like minority law, and labels such as 'racism', and 'hate crimes'... its a fucking scam. with things like this, there will NEVER be equality, just another illusion of equality.

People talk of 'equality' as though it had one singular application - but it varies dramatically if you use it to create a whole sentence ie, you can only effectively talk about 'equality *of* something* not just equality on it's own. If people argue for equality of power or wealth, then such laws as you mention do not go far enough. Equality of opportunity is a popular one, targeting groups who in the typical view have reduced opportunity, seems a politically popular and simply implemented policy. Always seemed fairly irrational to me to treat a black differently to a white born into roughly the same situation, but I can imagine some sort of rational justification if that is only an occasional case and the majority is valid. There is also the issue of *when* you want the equality of opportunity - if it is at conception, then nothing need be done. If it is at 50, then continual management and compensation for a persons choices must occur through most of their life. The only view I can see any worth in (besides the view of forgetting about it entirely) is that of equality of opportunity at adulthood. Measures such as free education and health care for children are an attempt to level the playing field of good and bad parents. I do not think this is good because anyone specifically *deserves* it, I would just rather live in what I find a better society - ie people given a good chance to develop to a level I find good

 

[PhantoMPhones]

People talk of 'equality' as though it had one singular application - but it varies dramatically if you use it to create a whole sentence ie, you can only effectively talk about 'equality *of* something* not just equality on it's own. If people argue for equality of power or wealth, then such laws as you mention do not go far enough. Equality of opportunity is a popular one, targeting groups who in the typical view have reduced opportunity, seems a politically popular and simply implemented policy. Always seemed fairly irrational to me to treat a black differently to a white born into roughly the same situation, but I can imagine some sort of rational justification if that is only an occasional case and the majority is valid. There is also the issue of *when* you want the equality of opportunity - if it is at conception, then nothing need be done. If it is at 50, then continual management and compensation for a persons choices must occur through most of their life. The only view I can see any worth in (besides the view of forgetting about it entirely) is that of equality of opportunity at adulthood. Measures such as free education and health care for children are an attempt to level the playing field of good and bad parents. I do not think this is good because anyone specifically *deserves* it, I would just rather live in what I find a better society - ie people given a good chance to develop to a level I find good

Very good points, you bring up. I was pretty much generalizing on the whole 'equality' thing because thats another large conversation ^.^ But I do understand and agree with what you are saying, for the most part if I gather correctly. Theres a lot of variables when it comes to equality however, and I think its next to impossible to satisfy everyone. Obviously you can't have 'absolute equality' because then 'equality of opportunity' would be almost non-existent. I am all for equality of opportunity (well....sorta), but in many ways I'm dead against it. Whole social darwinism dealy heh. I think I'd rather stay away from talking about various equality issues for the sake of staying somewhat on topic of the thread, and because I will likely draw a lot of flames. However, if you really want to discuss it, we can.

Phantomphones -Holy crap, I could say "words right from my mouth" but Im not so tactful.

Things I'd like to mention - we loose our freedom... at times... to make "free choice" due to social pressure or peer pressure or whatever, so much pressure today. As was said its all a big distraction to keep us tongue tied and questioning ourselves.

The majority in so many instances now is like 52%/48% and in reality, in the States we were supposed to be set up so that a majority could NOT over run the views, feelings or needs of a lesser percentage. Didnt work out that way did it ?

Lastly I see now at the top of the page we have this social pressure and propagandy issue that pops up. Now its gone but it was just there. it said "will white people ever get over race?" The most amusing thing about that is, every nationality/race has a racism issue. Its only most productive to thow it all against "the white race" because we have the most to give away. Its natural to identify with ones own kind, even outside of skin color, the opposite is an act of rebelion or other deeply rooted issues. ** Please note I said opposite, not acceptance.

I really like how you said 'lose freedom to make free choice', thats a very clear example of the complexities of the situation with 'free will in the social world'. Arg, I'm starting to get frustrated. When I think too much about race it really bugs me... I'll add more later.

 

[razoredge]

equality of performance would yeild equality in the work place or school or sports or business, but differences exist... "thats the way it is"... lol

 

[PhantoMPhones]

could you explain a little more?

 

[razoredge]

different people have different strong suits regardless the race, but certain lineages/race/heritage also have particular strenghts by percentage.

I guess to sum it all up, I dont feel we are born equal for any given task, however I feel we balance the scale by utilizing our strenghts.

unfortunantly the economic scale does not agree but lets look at who controls that... naw, lets not, it could get ugly... lol

 

[PhantoMPhones]

lol

 

[SentinelSlain]

Well?

I ask because I belong to a certain race and try as I might, I simply do not understand some races out there, I just don't. it makes me wonder if the only friends I have belong to my race which begs the question, should people stick to their own kind?

Any thoughts?

I have friends who are second generation immigrants (or some other term, they are here legally anyway) and I don't really ever have the culture clashes I've had speaking to people who live in foreign countries.

In terms of relationships, well I suppose you can choose to reap the benefits of living somewhere where interracial relationships are mostly a non-issue. Basically do it if you want don't if you don't

I can perfectly understand prioritising people who are of the same culture, as it would make it more straightforward. Race affects attraction so yeah, whatever.

I personally prefer my own race in terms of attractive females, but not by a great deal and they could be white and still not really be of the totally same culture.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Well?

I ask because I belong to a certain race and try as I might, I simply do not understand some races out there, I just don't. it makes me wonder if the only friends I have belong to my race which begs the question, should people stick to their own kind?

Any thoughts?

It is natural that "birds of a feather flock together". Everyone doesn't want to mix randomly - we all prefer those with at least similar interests and outlooks on the world, although - to expand one's awareness and knowledge - there is no harm in being friendly and curious about other people UP TO A POINT.

We live in a society in which it is considered very bad form if we only associate with those like us - almost a CRIME in fact.

If I feel like I am being forced to feel guilty for my preference and that I should mix with people I don't want to then I will not cooperate.

We should not be bullied into racemixing for example. Yet we are. The practice of "bussing" white schoolchildren into black schools and vice versa was a failure in the US, yet they wish to do that in the UK and some white kids in Yorkshire have been forced to worship in Mosques in neighbouring towns. This is an outrage and should even be contrary to "human rights" for what that is worth.

It has been proven scientifically, without doubt, that increasing the genetic diversity in a community destroys trust and cooperation. This was the reluctant conclusion of Professor Robert Putnam of Harvard University. You look it up.

Also Hamilton's rule for the spread of genes for altruism in a population shows us that kinship is vital to keep this characteristic in any genepool. It is lost when altruism is applied indiscriminately and promiscuously.

It is precisely because this would (and is now) result in a hell on Earth that I firmly hold that people should live amongst their own kind and maintain group solidarity. No hate required.

 

[Vimana]

I go to a very diverse school and there is plenty of trust and cooperation. Actually more than a previous school I went to that was almost entirely Italian.

The reason people want to bus and mix people is because they don't want people so separated that they might start feuding. I don't know how it works over in Europe. But in America diverse have as much trust and cooperation as others.

Sticking to your own kind causes crap to happen, meeting others can expand your understanding of different peoples. I myself am multiracial. Maybe you just haven't experienced a multicultural environment.

I'm not saying people should be forced to mix if they don't want to, I'm just saying that it isn't bad for people to mix.