Symphony X's future

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

I rarely care about lyrics, but some of the ones on Iconoclast are so bad that they just stick out (see the title track, Dehumanized, Bastards of the Machine, WAIL, LUTN, Lords of Chaos, Reign... yeah, pretty much everything on the album). Prometheus was solid, but that's about it. Paradise Lost was slightly better, but still had that "written by a fifth grader" vibe to it.

 

[Sauna]

Even as a person who thinks Iconoclast is awesome, I have to agree about When All Is Lost. The lyrics in the beginning (before the distorted guitar kicks in) are so goddamn cheesy it's not even funny. Thankfully it gets better though.

I rarely care about lyrics

How come? They're an integral part of any non-instrumental song, and it's not like they can really be ignored or anything.

 

[iceandfire84]

Even as a person who thinks Iconoclast is awesome, I have to agree about When All Is Lost. The lyrics in the beginning (before the distorted guitar kicks in) are so goddamn cheesy it's not even funny. Thankfully it gets better though.



How come? They're an integral part of any non-instrumental song, and it's not like they can really be ignored or anything.

Lyrics also rank at the bottom of my list of importance when listening to a song. I tend to not even try and figure out what is being said until I've listened to a song several times through. I treat the vocal melodies more like an additional instrument during that time frame, and it's more about the tone of the singing than the lyrics. I know I'm more in the minority on that point though.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Lyrics also rank at the bottom of my list of importance when listening to a song. I tend to not even try and figure out what is being said until I've listened to a song several times through. I treat the vocal melodies more like an additional instrument during that time frame, and it's more about the tone of the singing than the lyrics. I know I'm more in the minority on that point though.

This is pretty much how I see it, as well. On the whole, I think good lyrics can enhance a song more than weak lyrics can drag one down, if that makes any sense. Out of all the parts of music (melody, harmony, rhythm, each individual instrument's lines, etc.) lyrics simply matter the least to me.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

Lyrics also rank at the bottom of my list of importance when listening to a song. I tend to not even try and figure out what is being said until I've listened to a song several times through. I treat the vocal melodies more like an additional instrument during that time frame, and it's more about the tone of the singing than the lyrics. I know I'm more in the minority on that point though.

^This.

You're not alone. I've never understood the importance people attach to them; unless it's out of some form of pompousity(though I can certainly see the disturbing difference in SX's lyrical quality post-Miller).

Case in point: To Tame A Land by Iron Maiden - Here the lyrics are pretty horrible, yet we still have one of the most awesome epics ever put down. As Bruce Dickinson himself said, "If it rocks, who gives a shit what it's about?"


Lyrics Schmyricks.

 

[Marwen]

I don't really think about lyrics as a separate thing from the whole story/theme of a song. THAT to me is rather important, not the lyrics themselves. They complement the music not the other way around (unlike say with film music where the music helps/complements the story). Just like with film music however being a background/FX thing and not the essential material, most people have a tendency to take them and their psychological effect for granted. But having mature well-written lyrics makes the story/theme more believable which in turn makes the song more respectable. And vice versa. Imagine a song like Awakenings or DWOT with silly lyrics. Doesn't quite ruin the music but makes you respect the the song as a whole less.

 

[ElvenShadow]

Yea, good lyrics help but bad ones don't completely ruin a song for me, but I do agree about Iconoclast having some bad ones.

The song that stands out most to me as having amazing music (while some may not agree) and bad lyrics (everyone will agree) is DT - The Count of Tuscany. I love that song but it has turned into a joke song for me even though the music (especially the first 3 or 4 minutes and last 3 or 4 minutes) are amazing and very emotional.

 

[Phanto]

Lyrics can both help a song, and fuck it over. Obviously it depends on how discreet the lyrics are. Listening to thrash metal, I wouldn't care too much about lyrics. Listening to a rock opera/concept album -- chances are I'll notice any good/bad effects of the lyrics.
I think ElvenShadow has a good example in The Count of Tuscany, for when lyrics can be harmful (but for that reason not necessarily ruin the entire song).

 

[EyeballKid]

The idea that lyrics are irrelevant as long as the melody is good is asinine.

Just listen to some Metallica demos with James singing non-sense syllables. "Harvester of Sorrow" is a good one. Or as it was once called, "Wah-nana wah Nana".

 

[Sauna]

^--- Yes. And I'd even take Wah-nana wah Nana over a lot of the more horrid lyrics I've come across over the years.

I do get what a lot of you are saying, though, especially Marwen. Certainly if the song is awesome and the delivery of the lyrics convincing, a lot of shortcomings in the actual lyrics can be made up for.

^This.
Case in point: To Tame A Land by Iron Maiden - Here the lyrics are pretty horrible, yet we still have one of the most awesome epics ever put down. As Bruce Dickinson himself said, "If it rocks, who gives a shit what it's about?"

I've also come across that statement by Bruce, and I don't think he was condoning bad lyrics in any way. He just meant that if you do it properly, you can make a "rocking" song out of any subject. As for To Tame a Land, yes it could have been written a bit better, but it's really one of those songs about books/films/historical events where you have to know the stuff it's based on to really get what it's about.

I've never understood the importance people attach to them; unless it's out of some form of pompousity

I'm curious to know why you feel this way. Why would it be pompous?

 

[iceandfire84]

The idea that lyrics are irrelevant as long as the melody is good is asinine.

Just listen to some Metallica demos with James singing non-sense syllables. "Harvester of Sorrow" is a good one. Or as it was once called, "Wah-nana wah Nana".

Irrelevant and least important quality of a song are pretty far apart I think. Not sure if anyone said they thought lyrics were completely irrelevant or not...

I agree with other sentiments that good lyrics can really elevate a song but bad lyrics can't completely ruin a song. And since you brought up harvester of sorrow those words are still some of the few lyrics I actually know in that song and i've probably listened to it dozens of times haha. The others being "do you see what I see" and those variations. It just doesn't really register when I'm just trying to jam out to some metal.

Also agree with whoever said that lyrics do become more important in a concept album. If you're trying to tell a story then you better at least have some mildly compelling and thoughtful lyrics.

 

[Kenneth R.]

The idea that lyrics are irrelevant as long as the melody is good is asinine.

Just listen to some Metallica demos with James singing non-sense syllables. "Harvester of Sorrow" is a good one. Or as it was once called, "Wah-nana wah Nana".

Lyrics are imo the most important part of the song if the piece is not an instrumental. Huge. And often neglected in this genre. For every reference to "darkness" and "reality" or "future" there are a thousand copies. A thousand thousand. It's just bad storytelling, like reading a pulp airport stand book. Since we are mortals, it is foolish to waste time on such material. Unremarkable castings of better musical potential. For me, bad lyrics immediately ruin a song and make it completely unlistenable.


Oh, and the worst that can happen is not that SX breaks up. The worst that can happen is if they dilute themselves to make it big in the mainstream market, rendering their vehicle of message worthless in the process. Lingering on in unimportance, like an ill-formed sequel.

 

[Phanto]

The worst that can happen is if they dilute themselves to make it big in the mainstream market, rendering their vehicle of message worthless in the process. Lingering on in unimportance, like an ill-formed sequel.

you should write lyrics

 

[Sauna]

^--- Yeah, that read like a passage in fiction.

...we must win the tenth tournament, or else Earthrealm will be lost to Shang Tsung!

Oh man, that killed me.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Since we are mortals

...we must win the tenth tournament, or else Earthrealm will be lost to Shang Tsung!

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

I'm curious to know why you feel this way. Why would it be pompous?

I've just never understood it when people attach such uber-importance to them(aside from on a concept album) and you just get the standard reaction like you get from hipsters when you point out to them that the film Inception was a piece of shit, like "you just don't get it man" or "uh, it is just too cerebral for ya brah."

Fuck that shit.

 

[Sauna]

Yeah of course it's annoying when it gets like that, but in my experience that's rarely the case. Personally I would never look down on someone for not liking lyrics that I like, it's always about personal preferences in the end anyway.

 

[EyeballKid]

I've also come across that statement by Bruce, and I don't think he was condoning bad lyrics in any way. He just meant that if you do it properly, you can make a "rocking" song out of any subject.

Agreed. I don't believe Bruce would ever call out any aspect of his music as being poorly crafted. He's too much the egotist for that.

Irrelevant and least important quality of a song are pretty far apart I think.

I agree with other sentiments that good lyrics can really elevate a song but bad lyrics can't completely ruin a song.

On the message board of a band with a world-class singer that also features Gregorian chants/battle cries and wooden flute keyboard patches, I think calling the lyrics the "least important quality of a song" is absurd. If Russell changed every lyric to "fart", I think you'd change your position on what is least important.

Also, take a listen to any of the newer Megadeth albums. Most songs, as instrumentals, are great for "jamming out to some metal", but the lyrics completely ruin their power. I'm sure if we dig in really shallow sandboxes we can find other metal bands burying terrible lyrics within decent music.

Lyrics are imo the most important part of the song if the piece is not an instrumental. Huge. And often neglected in this genre. For every reference to "darkness" and "reality" or "future" there are a thousand copies. A thousand thousand. It's just bad storytelling, like reading a pulp airport stand book. Since we are mortals, it is foolish to waste time on such material. Unremarkable castings of better musical potential. For me, bad lyrics immediately ruin a song and make it completely unlistenable.

I could not agree more. Thank you for your sanity.

 

[iceandfire84]

On the message board of a band with a world-class singer that also features Gregorian chants/battle cries and wooden flute keyboard patches, I think calling the lyrics the "least important quality of a song" is absurd. If Russell changed every lyric to "fart", I think you'd change your position on what is least important.

Also, take a listen to any of the newer Megadeth albums. Most songs, as instrumentals, are great for "jamming out to some metal", but the lyrics completely ruin their power. I'm sure if we dig in really shallow sandboxes we can find other metal bands burying terrible lyrics within decent music.

I am allowed to approach a song however I choose thankfully. I don't listen to music when I want to hear poetry; I will just go read poetry. When I listen to music I want to be entertained and occasionally marvel at ingenuity of the artist for creating sounds so compelling.

There are plenty great songs out there with unusual lyrics that sometimes make me chuckle at how silly they are. Still I think those songs are great because I listen to music to hear music buddy. So If you want think that your way is the only way to enjoy a song then I think that is what's absurd. Your hyperbole is also irrelevant because you're not going hear something in that realm of ridiculousness on a record.

Case in point for me is the lyrics of Iconoclast. Nothing special or particularly creative about it, but I still think is a very strong song off of that album. Why? Glad you asked....because the music itself is what makes the song. If Rus was putting together lyrics that gave me a hard on and the music was a bunch of garbage we wouldn't even be having this conversation because no one would know who the hell Symphony X even was.

I respect you and everyone else who take lyrics seriously, and who feel like they diminish a song that much when they are poorly written. We all hear things in different ways and place various levels of importance on different aspects of music. I was just trying to share my personal feelings and agree with others. To label our thoughts as "absurd" and to question our sanity is just flat out wrong.

 

[Matt]

Yeah, it'd be nice if they even pretended to care about their fans. A lot of bands fall prey to either hating their fans or just ignoring them, though.