the dynamite politics thread

[Humanure]

The cause is just (freeing people from oppression and all that jazz). Casualties will unfortunately happen. It's a shame, but Iraq has to be the example of the use of coercive force to force cooperation amongst rouge nations. If we let this slide, then other nations will disregard UN resolutions and such as well. The UN has a future, it's just still going through growing pains.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

The cause is just (freeing people from oppression and all that jazz).

Oh, but who will free us from the oppression and all that, of USA?

Casualties will unfortunately happen.

Unfortunately?? You know, USA is the one doing the attacking here...
All the casualties will be on their head and not Saddams.

It's a shame, but Iraq has to be the example of the use of coercive force to force cooperation amongst rouge nations.

Yes, force, the only thing USA knows...

If we let this slide, then other nations will disregard UN resolutions and such as well. The UN has a future, it's just still going through growing pains.

Oh, like USA is disregarding their wish for more talk, NOT war.
UN is going thru deathspasms, don't confuse them with growing pains.


USA is really doing a fine job here, smart idea to attack, that will sure
put a stop on the terrorist, uh huh, sure thing...
Talk about shooting yourself in the head.

 

[Thanatos]

The cause is just (freeing people from oppression and all that jazz). Casualties will unfortunately happen. It's a shame, but Iraq has to be the example of the use of coercive force to force cooperation amongst rouge nations. If we let this slide, then other nations will disregard UN resolutions and such as well. The UN has a future, it's just still going through growing pains.

I absolutely concur with Salamy, free the iraqi people from Saddam's oppression just for them to fall under US' oppression? what's the point in that? and then the first and most disregarding country towards the UN is the US itself, what about it's support for Israel's own disregards and human rights violation of palestinians? and that "rouge nation" term is just nasty, are you gonna call that to every nation who refuses to "cooperate" (aka act humbly and agree to whatever abuse the USA wants to get away with) with the US or EU?

 

[hyena]

@thanatos: the "rogue nations" (not "rouge", thankfully we're way past communism) doctrine precedes this specific circumstance. it dates back to about 20 years ago and I think it's well-founded. A rogue nation is not, as you say, a nation refusing to cooperate with the USA, but, technically, a country that builds nuclear warheads and encourages research on chemical and biological weapons, possibly excluding itself from international treaties concerning proliferation of war instruments (that's what North Korea did recently). This is to say that even if Germany or France do not cooperate in the war effort they're not going to be labeled "rogue states", they are not going to be bombed, etc.; the rogue nation, by definition governed by a dictator or a political oligarchy as opposed to a democracy, is a danger to the whole human kind with their whimsical pursuit and, eventually, use of nuclear or similarly destructive force.

@Salmy: no, the Iraqis are not going to fall under the American "oppression". I don't see the occupation forces killing Kurds by the thousands, or locking up women who refuse to wear a headscarf. I don't see any American soldier shooting someone because they dare to say in public that they don't agree with US policy. Americans are not oppressors, as much as you might dislike them. The US is founded on democracy and freedom of speech. It's not going to become an absolutist regime overnight.

@|ng: of course I do not agree with anything you say, but "that was a point added by Clinton" hugely cracked me up

@everyone: aren't you a bit surprised by the way the operations are being conducted? this first strike aimed at trying to kill Saddam reminds me of that same strategy used against UBL in Sudan some years ago. It (predictably) didn't work back then, why are they thinking it could work now?

 

[Salamurhaaja]

@hyena
Nice to see their brainwashing goes far away... There is oppression and then there is oppression.

As for what comes to North Korea... hmmm, don't see USA bombing them, I wonder why...

 

[rahvin]

As for what comes to North Korea... hmmm, don't see USA bombing them, I wonder why...

it might be just me, but personally i think north korea only has water-pistols. they can be harmful if used in the right way, but as far as weapons of mass destruction go, they're not very popular.
i'm currently importing the know-how to build slings.

rahvin.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

@rahvin
Yeah, but don't worry, soon USA will go "disarm" them
as well... sorta reminds me of this card in this game
called Vampire: The Eternal Strugle, where this vampire
disarms another... by ripping out his hand, instead of
the gun.

It's quite funny that USA, where it is legal to buy a
gun to defend your home (this was the law a few
years back, might have changed by now), is the one
going over to disarm Iraq...

 

[rahvin]

a slight shift in topic: why is it that 90% of the people i talk to (you included, salmy! ) seem to think that every single individual who doesn't agree with them on the subject is a victim of propaganda (regardless of the origin and side of the propaganda)?

i mean, i went out for lunch today and i had to wade through a thick crowd of tree-hugging hippies trying to prove that peace, cavorting in the sun, and bad grammar are the safest bets for a happy life, but i do not associate everyone who thinks this war should have been avoided with brain-dead victims of the opposite dogma. and by no means the fact that i support this or that theory means or will mean in the future that i'm not trying to build my own goddamn opinion on the subject. so please let's spare us rounds of "you, mindless drone!" unless there's reason to doubt someone's ability to think in a very very very broad sense.

rahvin.

 

[hyena]

i concur with what rahvin said. salmy, i don't see what gives you the right to call me brainwashed. i expressed my opinion in a civilized way, without calling you any names or doubting your intellectual skills. please return the favor and keep the debate about thoughts, not presumed brain problems of people who support another stand.

about the tree-hugging hippies: yes, there is a big "bad grammar will save your life" movement in the country, i fail to realize the reasons but there has to be some special appeal in that...

 

[Salamurhaaja]

[sarcasm, bad humor]
@rahvin
see, it's like Mr. Bush in his ultimate wisdom said:
"If you... uuum... oh yeah, are not with us... or is
that US? um... well, anyway, what the fuck did I
forget now... well you are against us"

And by god you are gonna pay...
[/sarcasm, bad humor]

 

[rahvin]

@salmy: i have no doubt that i'm "against you" on this matter, i just tend to dismiss the idea of being stupid or brainwashed. this is of course exactly what stupid/brainwashed people do, but i think i'll run the risk.
and you know i don't take things personal, any way you address me or what i think is fine. deep inside you love me and no damn war is gonna keep us separated.

rahvin.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

@rahvin
hahaah, yep yep, I got nothing against you, even on
this thing, it's just something that totally rubs me
the wrong way and I tend to say what I think of that.

NP: Borknagar - Quintessence - Ruins Of The Future
(I thought this was quite fitting )

[offtopic]
WOOT!
Finally got my CD-stalls, now I will move myself to
my bedroom compleately hahah
(sheesh, only took them, uum almost 3 months to
deliver the damn things)
[/offtopic]

 

[|ngenius]

@|ng: of course I do not agree with anything you say, but "that was a point added by Clinton" hugely cracked me up

Oh, don't worry. I often do not agree with anything I say either, but if my worthless words made you laugh, they accomplished their mission.


|ng (Free Spain! Expulse the robot!)

 

[Salamurhaaja]

"American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger," Bush said.

Source: CNN.com

hahahaha, so let me see, which grave danger is he talking about?

Maybe, they will blow themselves up, thus defeating the gravest
danger in the world, at the moment.

 

[hyena]

i have come to the conclusion that the most dangerous enemy of world peace, right now, is public transport. in particular, the bus is a wretched symbol of american imperialism, notwithstanding the latin origin of its name; and the train, european in nature, has now become an object of scorn in that it obviously conspires with US military leaders to destroy the world.

i fail to see any other reason why in my country demonstrators are consistently blocking railways and urban public transport routes. i stayed at home tonight on account of being severely ill, but the people living with me were relating frightening stories. i don't see what the poor, innocent machines and those who use them have to do with politics. let the trains, tube carriages, tramways and buses be. they're not bombing anyone.

 

[rahvin]

yeah. libraries - as buildings - are also becoming more and more conscious of their role in an active, politically concerned community who cares about stopping bombs from falling through outrageous, defying acts such as suspending library loan for three hours and other specifically focused attempts to make world leaders realize that librarians - in and of themselves - hold tightly the reins to this country's survival.
be very careful, johnnie, not to meddle in the affairs of librarians. for they are subtle and quick to anger.

rahvin.

 

[Lamia]

Dethroning Saddam Hussein is truly a fine idea. Dictarorship is totally out of fashion nowadays. But Mr.Bush/USA IMHO are using way too big a gun to shoot an ant. They say it's a war against Hussein, yet they're bombing the people of Iraq. Either they mistook a country for a dictator, or they've got the worst aim ever. Wonder which target they'll accidentally hit next trying to get Hussein.

How difficult it can be anyway to assassinate a bully?! (and no, this time I'm not refering to Bush.)

-Lamia,
cynic

 

[Zero888]

the best way to conquer a culture is destroy their books and libraries, once they cant read theyve lost one of their greatest freedoms, in fact the only thing that is keeping them free

 

[hyena]

see, rahvin? you're a stronghold of western culture. dig some mines (you're an expert at that anyway) and bring the books down there. i will try to conjure up a save the buses campaign and as soon as our precious cultural heritage is safe I will launch it, no matter how hard the bombs hit.

btw, somebody told me that at 8 this morning a number of demonstrator tied themselves to the railroad tracks in torino. i couldn't help but think this was a mighty fine way to get rid of some of them in a row (in order to defend your average train's free will too), but then again, everyone knows i'm mean.

 

[Thaumiel]

A rogue nation is not, as you say, a nation refusing to cooperate with the USA, but, technically, a country that builds nuclear warheads and encourages research on chemical and biological weapons, possibly excluding itself from international treaties concerning proliferation of war instruments (that's what North Korea did recently).

Not only North Korea, USA also could be labelled as a "rogue state". THINK of it for a while, they build neuclear weapons, research both biological and chemical weapons and defy the international treties. Also, they have this tendacy in invading foreign contries.

This is to say that even if Germany or France do not cooperate in the war effort they're not going to be labeled "rogue states", they are not going to be bombed, etc.;

Well, I think this is the deeper fear of us all. The UN doesn't light-heartly allow bombardments and invasions. They promote peace not war. The problem here is that three countries decided that they going to invade another after weaken it with a 12-year embargo. After this what's next, defy international law again and again, destroy any oppossision around the world, etc.

the rogue nation, by definition governed by a dictator or a political oligarchy as opposed to a democracy, is a danger to the whole human kind with their whimsical pursuit and, eventually, use of nuclear or similarly destructive force.

Political oligarchy, like the military-oil trusts of USA, Aznar and Berlusconi multi-million comparations? I think your right!

no, the Iraqis are not going to fall under the American "oppression". I don't see the occupation forces killing Kurds by the thousands, or locking up women who refuse to wear a headscarf. I don't see any American soldier shooting someone because they dare to say in public that they don't agree with US policy. Americans are not oppressors, as much as you might dislike them. The US is founded on democracy and freedom of speech. It's not going to become an absolutist regime overnight.

Your joking?! The USA originally supplied Saddam with mustard gas to kill the Kurds and Suni Muslims in the south, so the they wouldn't topple their arab-hero of 80s, Saddam!

As for bringing freedom, I can not count how many democracy were rapped by the USA, eg Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, Greece, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Iran, Iraq, etc.

of course I do not agree with anything you say, but "that was a point added by Clinton" hugely cracked me up

When Clinton came here, he even apologized for installing a dectatorship in Greece!

aren't you a bit surprised by the way the operations are being conducted? this first strike aimed at trying to kill Saddam reminds me of that same strategy used against UBL in Sudan some years ago. It (predictably) didn't work back then, why are they thinking it could work now?

I am. For the first time, the USA seem so ineffective and unprepared. They have already lost 4 helicopters, their Patriots in Kuwait failed against 2 out of 6 missiles fired. Yesterday they were celebrating for capturing a small village on the borders with Kuwait, while today they are announcing that they are still fighting outside the city. Don't get me wrong here, I don't want even to think that the war will last more than a month, but the if things continue this way, dire times lay ahead.

I think about the poor citizens of USA, Britain and Iraq that are going to die, for some more billion dollars to be collected by blood-stained corporation, that run their countries.