the dynamite politics thread

[Salamurhaaja]

@|ng
you can bet your boot (or what you call those metal things that you move around with ) that it does NOT involve sex

As for comes of this:

i'm just saying that i'm more afraid of having to protect myself from mr. hussein and his no job, no metal music, no internet connection, no chance to say i disagree with him politics, than of having to protect myself from the united states.

This is utter bullshit and you should know it, if you should fear one of these countries doing that to you it's sure as hell isn't Iraq, they have no means for it...

USA on the other hand is doing this, as we speak by starting this war.

See it's a case of stealth privilidges, you THINK you are free to choose, vote, whatever, but you are not, you are given "choices" but what those choices are, the same thing as everything else, only the one you vote was more appealing to you, even tho it's the same as guy next to him, at least in Iraq I would KNOW I am not free and quite frankly I like that way more than this, "oh I am so righteous and will free the oppressed people of the world, I want everyone to live by my rules and thats it".

Fucking politics, I say gather all the politician, media-moguls, Lawyers and car salesmen in one place, drop a huge fucking nuke on them let anarchy rule.

It's too fucking bad that everyone isn't USA, isn't it Mr. Bush?

 

[Humanure]

As similar as the choices are, the way the system is ensures us that a person like Hussein would never be elected. Additionally, if someone did abuse power to the extent that the constitution (or whatever) allowed them to, they would be removed in the next election.

Such a system also prevents the US from invading everyone and doing what you describe. At least, not overtly by oppressive measures.

 

[Naku ist krig]

Oh George..

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Such a system also prevents the US from invading everyone and doing what you describe. At least, not overtly by oppressive measures.

Oh yeah, seems to be working fucking MIRACLES right now, gee, wake up already. And that is real sad coming from me...

NP: Monty Python - Holy (fucking) Grail, on DVD

 

[Villain]

A few words about a history of a certain war not so long ago:

The leaders of the militarily most powerful country in the world decided that they should start invading other countries and push their morals and ideals down the throats of the other nations. The UN of the era, called the League of Nations, was impotent to prevent the war it was originally meant to prevent. The other major powers of the world were more afraid of another country, because it had an aggressive "nature", had lots of weapons and apparently had "morals" different from those of the other aforementioned countries - the militarily powerful country was regarded as one that held high morals, was the forerunner of safety and was the main promotor of peace, despite its not-so-distant bloody history. That's why so little was done to prevent this country's preparation for war, although it broke certain international laws by illegal military deployment.

Then, in September 1939 that very same country invaded Poland with a lame excuse just like it had intended for years; the League of Nations stopped existing. Can you see the parallel with what's happening today?

I see just as much justification and reasoning in the US attack against Iraq today as with the Nazi-German attack against Poland in 1939. Granted, the Iraqi-citicens are living in much poorer conditions than Americans - just like the poles when compared to the wealthy Germans in late 30's. Did their lives turn to better with the change of power? No, but the Germans (or at least the military industry) got richer. Just like it will happen now.

If Russia, France and China had any balls, they would declare war on the Fascist States of America the moment an American soldier passes the Iraqi border.

-Villain

 

[Villain]

As similar as the choices are, the way the system is ensures us that a person like Hussein would never be elected. Additionally, if someone did abuse power to the extent that the constitution (or whatever) allowed them to, they would be removed in the next election.

Did you know that Hitler was elected with a system almost identical to that of the modern-day "democratic" countries? And he simply threw away the constitution (or whatever).

If Bush & co ('cause he for sure is not alone in this) now suddenly would get the same ideas of world-domination like Hitler & co had, they could do it with ease. The thing I'm afraid of, is that they seem to have got those ideas already...

Btw, did you know that the power of the Bush-family was built by business with Nazi-Germany? Yep, as late as early 40's. If somehow the Nazi's would have all died in, say 1935, the Bushes could never had bought all those senator/governor-seats like they did and that warmongering idiot and his father would never had been anything more than mere corn-farmers, like they should have been - another proof of the lack of "higher justice" in this world.

-Villain

 

[Ormir]

Since you brought up history, I'm reminded of another account from the period. A popular revolution in a country resulted in the ruling class being murdered, and a radical securilzation. The new leadership proved to be tyrannical, and would soon invade neighbouring countries and produce weapons of mass destruction. One man was convinced that the new political order was evil, and a pre-emptive strike and military invasion had to be made before it could threaten the whole region. His pleas fell on deaf ears, as the threat was considered contained, and insignificant by the international community. They imposed sanctions. The country was the Soviet Union, the year was 1918, and that man was C.G Mannerheim.

"Pahaan on puututtava ennen kuin paha puuttuu meihin"
-C.G Mannerheim

 

[Villain]

A good point Ormir - and I agree with the allegory: Saddam should be topled in order to prevent further conflicts.

However, the USA is the last country in the world that should be allowed to do it, because they are renowned for:

1. ...their use of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons in various wars during the past century, which implies...
2. ...their apparent lack of caring towards the civilian population of the attacked country (and their children, and their grandchildren, etc. people are born deformed in Vietnam today because of the toxins Americans used back then), and especially...
3. ...their greedy ways of pillaging the conquered countries constantly for decades to come - the oil-reserves of Iraq are some of the richest in the world and letting them drop into the hands of Bush is allegorial to the ore-reserves of Norway dropping into the hands of Hitler in 1940.

Could I kill two men right now, they would be Saddam Hussein and Geroge W. Bush.

Could I kill two THOUSAND men right now, they would be Saddam Hussein, George W. Bush and 1998 American military/political leaders (well, perhaps I could spare a few for certain other assholes in the world...)

-Villain

 

[Humanure]

Sorry, I guess I just have more faith in self government than you guys. Did we annex Afghanistan? Will we annex Iraq? Don't be ridiculous. We do have our own motives in this matter, but it doesn't begin and end with oil. If we get a little extra oil coming our way, then whoopdie do. If we get too much, however, the price per barrel would drop and the oil tycoons who bought the election for Bush wouldn't be too happy.

Bush=Hitler, huh? Interesting. Now, my knowledge of history isn't all that great, but didn't the Treaty of Versaille bassically cripple Germany and wasn't it also a source or anger and embarrasment for years with them? If so, then why wouldn't they want revenge and furthermore, not care what their leader does to attain it. Enlighten me if I'm wrong, but that was something that remains in my brain after all these years . Presumably, a stronger international governing body would not have allowed such a lopsided treaty to be forced upon any nation.

Then again, 'history is the lie made up by the winners'.

I simply don't see why people don't think Saddam should be ousted. The people of Iraq couldn't do it alone, so why shouldn't they get help? Fine, the timing can be debated, but Bush only has 22 guarenteed months left in office, so he's gotta get crackin' .

We're gonna get rich from invading Iraq, huh? No, see, when you're already as rich and powerful as us, a country like Iraq, even with all it's oil is chump change.

Sigh, I guess when it all comes down to it I also just have more faith in the people running the gov't than John Q. Public (not much, mind you).

-Humanure

 

[Villain]

Humanure: You're right about the Treaty of Versaille and that a stronger international government wouldn't have allowed it. But that is just historical hindsight.

About the money-issue: You really seem to overestimate the comparative richness of your country - and especially the few people that are leading it. Money indeed equals to power. Everywhere in the world and especially in the USA. In order to remain at the top of the world, the USA needs more money than anyone else - for technology, military, political bribes (often in the form of "aid"), maintaining a huge network of intelligence and terrorism that keeps many third-world countries from ever rising up, etc.

The biggest benefits of this war are reaped by the American oil and military industries - the same people who bought George W. the elections. The military industry made HUGE amounts of money during the previous Gulf-war and they are going to make even more now. I once read a report that said that America needs to go to a war at least once in a decade, otherwise its industries will collapse. Sadly, they appear to go warring even more often. When Iraq is done with, they go find some other target.

The oil-reserves of the world are going to diminish quickly in a couple of decades and the USA is the biggest oil-consumer. The oil-reserves in America are rather small, so the American oil-companies spend billions of dollars importing oil from around the world. Not surprisingly, the biggest found oil-reserves in the world are in countries that the USA has either allied itself with, or has warred with recently. The oil-pipe that goes through Afghanistan (and that was the real reason behind the recent Afghanistan War, planned long before 11.9.2001) will cost about 3 billion dollars to be built - and it will pay itself back in two years. The only target the Iraqi missiles are threatening, is that pipe.

But to make this less one-sided, the other countries are not so clean here, either: France, Russia, China, etc. have huge investments in the Iraqi-oil - made with Saddam. And if Saddam's goverment topples, all those contracts will go to Americans.

-Villain

 

[|ngenius]

Sorry, I guess I just have more faith in self government than you guys. Did we annex Afghanistan? Will we annex Iraq? Don't be ridiculous. We do have our own motives in this matter, but it doesn't begin and end with oil.

Exactly, the issue doesn't begin and end with oil, there are more factors involved. Do ask your president a simple question: why now? Twelve years after the first war... haven't Saddam had massive attack weapons five years ago? And after that, ask him: why Iraq? There are more countries into civil wars, suffering a tyranny. Why not... let's say... the old Sahara? Humanure, don't live a lie, Saddam is just a visible head, he's not the menace, he's not the reason. There are too many questions to answer, and too many people avoiding them. You're just an american citizen, try to reckon about these questions.

Bush=Hitler, huh? . I simply don't see why people don't think Saddam should be ousted.

Too many months. Let me remark it: Saddam doesn't matter at all. He should be ousted, but we are not discussing that, we're talking about the method, and the "hidden" reasons which compels Mr. Bush to attack Iraq overcoming the UN obstacles and restrictions.

[EDIT] And the most important thing on this: overcoming the vox populi, which claims for freedom, but also for peace. [/EDIT]

|ng.

 

[Humanure]

Oh, I agree with you guys on the fact that Saddam is no threat to us now. I think the reasons for attacking Iraq now lie in introducing democracy to the area, indeed, in destabilizing the region to introduce our 'high morals'. If we went after the biggest threat, it would certainly be North Korea. Next on the list, however, would be Iran or Saudi Arabia or Libya. Maybe a democratized Iraq will assist in democratizing these and other Arab states. Maybe it's just another silly domino theory. Regardless, I have to believe that deep down this is about making everyone in the world safer...and if we get some extras in the process, then good.

As for the economic issues, I wouldn't be shocked if that article you read is absolutely true, Villain. If the time came when it wasn't neccassary to maintain such a powerful military, however, the US could very easily shift to other sources. We seem to have survived the Clinton years just fine with a somewhat reduced military (though some would argue the decreased funding contributed to 9-11) and no major conflicts. Whether or not that would have lasted is anybody's guess.

Well, like I've said in the past, I'm no political or history expert. I'm simply a budding scientist who is watching and noting the events of today and is being amazed how thorougly one can predict them, if you have the right theory .

 

[|ngenius]

Wow, you remind me one of those XV century conquerors who evangelized the original american natives. "We should democratize those countries, let's start... here, Iraq. Embrace the TRUTH". Er... [/IRONY]


|ng.

 

[Thaumiel]

Oh, I agree with you guys on the fact that Saddam is no threat to us now. I think the reasons for attacking Iraq now lie in introducing democracy to the area, indeed, in destabilizing the region to introduce our 'high morals'. If we went after the biggest threat, it would certainly be North Korea. Next on the list, however, would be Iran or Saudi Arabia or Libya. Maybe a democratized Iraq will assist in democratizing these and other Arab states. Maybe it's just another silly domino theory. Regardless, I have to believe that deep down this is about making everyone in the world safer...and if we get some extras in the process, then good.

You're serious or joking?! Saddam came to power with your help in order to democratize and introduce high morals to Arabia (early '80s, if memory serves). Remember the mention Bush made about the chemical weapons Saddam used against Kurds of North Iraq? You know who gave it to him and why? You know that under the laws of your 'democratic' goverment, reporters MUST propagandize their policy and not report any negative news about their policies? How many people in your country know half of this things and from them how many try to react?

Try next time to question some things you take for granted. Your country tries to mimic WWII Germany and that's dangerous, basically for you, the americans.

As for the economic issues, I wouldn't be shocked if that article you read is absolutely true, Villain. If the time came when it wasn't neccassary to maintain such a powerful military, however, the US could very easily shift to other sources. We seem to have survived the Clinton years just fine with a somewhat reduced military (though some would argue the decreased funding contributed to 9-11) and no major conflicts. Whether or not that would have lasted is anybody's guess.

Well, like I've said in the past, I'm no political or history expert. I'm simply a budding scientist who is watching and noting the events of today and is being amazed how thorougly one can predict them, if you have the right theory .

You don't have to be neither a politician nor a historian to know this things, just a self-aware person that is elegible to vote.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

I think this says it pretty much clearly:

"But I think that when pressure is transformed into the use of force, then that's a disaster."

Source: BBC News

NP: (The) C/Kovenant - In Times Before The Light (Re-edition) - The Chasm

 

[Humanure]

This would be much more fun if I was as opinionated as you guys. Frankly I don't give a shit what we do. I'm glad some people in the world are actually showing some balls in this matter, and I feel that what we're doing is 'morally right'. Whatever our motives are, the people of Iraq would do much better not having their oil money going to build more presidential palaces for Saddam. No matter how much oil we steal from the land, some of the money will end up rebuilding and strenthening the country, wouldn't it? Oh, no, that's right, sorry, I forgot we're taking over and ruling with an iron fist...silly me .

@Thaumiel: Are your comments directed at our news reporters? Saying that they must report positive things about our government policies is ludicrous. Because most choose to support the government is not an indication that they are forced to. There's a shitload of literature published in this country not supporting government policies. Perhaps it's not in the mainstream media to the extent of the pro-gov't stuff, but I assure you it's there. As for Saddam, I guess we just fucked up back then, huh? Hopefully we'll do a better job this time, and Iraq and Afghanistan both prosper.

@|ng: I guess I do sound like a broken record, don't I? I just believe that some form of democracy is the best form of government. Those that don't have some form of representative goverment are stuck in the past. The middle east is sitting on trillions of dollars of oil, the area should be one of the richest in the world with a high standard of living, but much of their gov't and economic practices are flat out backwards. If it stayed this way until the wells dried up I would be indifferent. But if our President wants to go in no matter what, I'm gonna look on the bright side no matter what his own motives are.

Maybe this military action will help the situation, as I think it may, maybe it'll hurt the situation, I guess we'll just have to find out.

-Humanure (wondering if it is coincidence that the deadline comes at primetime on the east coast)

 

[rahvin]

-Humanure (wondering if it is coincidence that the deadline comes at primetime on the east coast)

no, it's because of illuminati: check the chat forum and have a laugh.

my humble complementary notes:
the usa sure are an imperialistic country right now. since back in the days of rome, all empires resort to force when they feel scared/threatened. it doesn't matter whether the threat is real or likely or merely possible: imperialism thrives on smacking possible opponents as soon as they become frightening. lest you think i suddenly had a change of heart: i think this principle is quite sound.
as always, that doesn't mean that i love it and cheer when i see it applied and all. it just means in my opinion it works fine, therefore any country with imperialistic aspirations should apply it, much like the united states are doing now. disarming potential threats to your control over land and economics is teh pulsing heart of international politics, whether we like it or not. to change this conditions requires more than mere un diplomacy. to change it in a way that nobody is at a disadvantage is pure utopia.

rahvin.

 

[Wolfman Von Jones]

Wow, you remind me one of those XV century conquerors who evangelized the original american natives. "We should democratize those countries, let's start... here, Iraq. Embrace the TRUTH". Er... [/IRONY]


|ng.

Yeah but too bad most of those people were from Spain .

Nick

 

[Salamurhaaja]

and I feel that what we're doing is 'morally right'.

When the FUCK did killing people become morally right?

sheesh, like Bill Hicks said, "go back to sleep America, your government is in control... here's American Gladiator, go back to sleep..."

 

[|ngenius]

Yeah but too bad most of those people were from Spain

Yeah, Nick, that's what I mean. Those spanish conquerors were weak and trendy scene. I wanted more slaughters, they, weak catholics...

I've realized about one thing: George Bushito is a metalhead!!! He's a huge Manowar fan. Don't you believe me? Face the truth:

---------------------------------------------------------------
Originally written by George W. Bush, Joey DeMaio and his grandmother's cat

Brothers I Am Calling From The Valley Of The Kings (Washington D.C)
With Nothing To Atone (Get the point, UN)
A Darkness Lies Ahead (Ahead = Iraq), Together We Will Ride (Without France and Germany, but yes, we will)
Like Thunder From The Sky (Bombs falling?)
May Your Sword Stay Wet Like A Young Girl In Her Prime (That was a point added by Clinton)
Hold Your Hammers High (A russian AK-47 subtle reference)

Blood, F-18s And Death Are Waiting Like A Raven In The Sky
I Was Born To Die (I don't hope so, even talking about you)
Hear Me While I Live (Certainly, we do listen him more than advisable)
As I Look Into Your Eyes
None Shall Hear A Lie
Power And Dominion Are Taken By The Will (Oil)
By Divine Right Hail And Kill

Hail, Hail, Hail And Kill. Hail And Kill
Hail, Hail, Hail And Kill. Hail And Kill

My Father Was A Wolf (A methapor about George Bush Senior)
I'm A Kinsman Of The Slain
Sworn To Rise Again
I Will Bring Salvation (Free Iraq Operation), Punishment And Pain
The Hammer Of Fate Is Our Faith
Power, And Dominion Are Taken By The Will (More Oil)
By Divine Right Hail And Kill

Hail, Hail, Hail And Kill. Hail And Kill
Hail, Hail, Hail And Kill. Hail And Kill

Rip Their Flesh
Burn Their Hearts
Stab Them In The Eyes
Rape Their Women As They Cry
Kill Their Servants
Burn Their Homes
Till There's No Blood Left To Spill (Hey, what about attack Korea?)
Hail And Kill

Power And Dominion Are Taken By The Will (Even more oil and some flowers)
By Divine Right Hail And Kill

----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I know that joke might hurt some sensibilities. But this war will hurt more than merely sensibilities, so, what can I do but laugh?


|ng (More Bender than ever)