the dynamite politics thread

[fireangel]

i think it's not a good idea.

and what do you think of Silvio Berlusconi in general? I think it´s a bit creepy that he has influence on so many things, with TVchannels, newspapers and making laws only to suit him many times. At least in Germany we are governed by different global companies

 

[La Rocque]

^^ @ Claudia just because everyone does it, does not make it right
"oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive"
After years of testimony by the White House liars. They will all now go to plan #2 or is it #202 : now the liars will all have amnesia.
Can't wait to see how this plays out.

Remember, the Nixon White House was brought down by security guard who found a piece of tape over a lock of an exit door from the Watergate.

 

[hyena]

@fireangel: i have mixed feelings about SB. i voted for him in the last general election because i support his alleged politics (he had a classic right-wing liberal program). i wasn't too happy with his tenure as a prime minister tho, because he overlooked domestic affairs completely in an effort to define italy as a player on the international scene again. while i concur with this goal, i don't think it should be the only goal of a government, especially one that looked like it aimed at changing the mainstream state-centered and no-individual-responsibility mentality of the country. moreover, he wasn't even that effective on the international front and his very recent words about not agreeing with the iraq war from the get go just make him kind of ridiculous in the public eye, both at home and abroad. for these reasons, in the next election i will still vote for his coalition but not for his party, and i would like someone else to be prime minister (unlikely) should his coalition win (possible).

@dave: i always found it completely ludicrous that a president should be impeached because he had some phones wired. if i were president, i'd have every phone wired. seriously now: i understand that this is a difference in outlook, in political culture between europe and the US, but I honestly fail to see why wanting to acquire as much info as you can on your opponent's plan should be evil. it's quite hypocritical: there are means to reach that goal that are subtler than wiretapping, such as coaxing information out of people without them noticing, and those means are not and can not be declared illegal. again, nixon was stupid in that he was caught, but it's very hard for me to think that his actions were immoral. same goes for the libby story.

 

[rahvin]

his very recent words about not agreeing with the iraq war from the get go just make him kind of ridiculous in the public eye

speaking about how germany is always one step ahead of italy, it's well known that hitler used to say he never wanted to go to war. fireangel should relax: in germany they did do it first.

 

[fireangel]

speaking about how germany is always one step ahead of italy, it's well known that hitler used to say he never wanted to go to war. fireangel should relax: in germany they did do it first.

We were not speaking about how Germany is always one step ahead of Italy.

You appear to think I only inquired about Italy because I was looking for something bad in your country? Or better you try to make it look that way, regardless of that you surely know better.

You know very well that I do study politics and it is one of my general interests. Here was lot in the newspapers about that change in election law (of course, to relax you, there was lot in the newspapers about a kazillion other countries, too) and since there are some people from Italy in this forum, I just wanted to hear some opinions, not through the media for once.


hyena: thanks for telling your view

 

[La Rocque]

^^^ @Claudia: first of all Nixon was not impeached, he resigned.
the Watergate buglers broke a couple of laws: Breaking and Entering, Theft, Wire tapping(A Federal Offence). As for Tricky Dicky of course he did not send/authorize the breakin, it all came down to 'what he knew and when did he know it' then what did he do once he knew it? He lied, lied under oath and to members of congress then he tried to cover up everything and when that didn't work out he stonewalled the investigation. His staff fell like dominions for him, but the law has a long arm.
I'm sure you remember when the US Congress wanted to impeach Clinton. Not for getting blow jobs from Monica but for lying to a grand jury about it.
Liar liar pants on fire or is that liar, liar pants around your ankles
Grand Jury's are an interesting part of the US Judicial System. The Grand Jury rules if there is sufficient evidence to go to trail. Witness are called and you must answer all questions, don't want to answer, you go to jail. For as long as it takes to answer. That reporter from the NY Times got to spend 85 days in jail because she did not cooperate with the Valerie Plame outing investigation before a grand jury.
As for Libby, if convicted he faces up to 25 years in jail and a fine of $1.5 million.
These are very serious chargers.
I find all this political bs to be tiresome and in most cases unlegal (< just heard this word for the first time this week and have been wanting to use, yes I know there is no such word but I like it)

 

[rahvin]

unlegal (< just heard this word for the first time this week and have been wanting to use, yes I know there is no such word but I like it)

well, that should be unlegal.

i don't know about this whole thing with lying and getting away with it versus lying and getting caught. on the one hand, i agree that the effectiveness of one's actions should not be the only element used in judging one's political behavior: being very good liars and bringing down the nation whose interests you've sworn to protect is not exactly an example of end justifying the means. however, this shouldn't be taken as an excuse to second-guess the decisions of democratically-elected representants of the people every time someone feels they're not morally sound or status-quo compliant. i sure as hell have not given mandate to the italian prime minister to lie under oath about alleged episodes of bribery, but when it comes to lie to my face about the bright future of this country's economy, i can only complain by not voting for him again (not that i ever did). it seems odd to imagine a punishment other than non-reelection for a politician's bad strategies or wrong decisions: these things tend to come back to haunt you even without the intervention of third parties.

 

[La Rocque]

I think it was Arch who wrote that Bush will reduce the number of US Troop in Iraq just before the midterm elections and then build them back up after that's over. He hit the nail on the head as there are now talks about reducing the number of troops starting in Oct.
If the number of US Soldiers killed in Iraq continues at the present pace by Sept.11 2006 the number of US dead will be more than killed by the terrorist attack of 9/11 -

 

[Zack]

Yep. War sucks.

 

[hyena]

Yep. War sucks.

I admire you because your way of thinking is original and innovative.

 

[marduk1507]

 

[VultureCulture]

ok, seems we need to dig out this one once again.
what do you think about the recent events in middle east?

 

[hyena]

i'm watching carefully.

conceptually, it's nothing new. ben-gurion wanted southern lebanon in 1948, and he even got the UN to agree, then all hell broke loose and he didn't get it. but of course the two prosperous ports are yummy, even if they never were jewish territory in the bible.

on the other side, hezbollah is waging a curious war. probably they're partly acting out of retaliation, partly to keep the israeli troops busy on a third front besides the gaza strip and the (hidden, but ever-troublesome, especially now) south-eastern border. it smacks of tactical diversion to me, but it's also a weird way to cause a diversion.

so i'm keeping my eyes open. will probably be an important string of events.

 

[fireangel]

I guess things like that are going to happen on and off, until all war-(or affected by war) parties (Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordania, Iran, Turkey, Egypt...) are going to sign some treaties with solutions and stick to them.

It&#180;s a real pity for the economy, and I don&#180;t mean our economy, but theirs, as this whole area is full of sites which are valuable for mankind, and just some tourism started again in Lebanon, for example. I was at that beautiful historical place of Tyrus, and I hope it won&#180;t be bombed to pieces.

Also I was exactly there, at the now burning airport of Beirut. Please note that the EU and others financed its reconstruction and renovation after previous wars, and now plenty of millions of money were wasted. (Same goes for the airport of Gaza strip btw, so talk about money to feed the world).

Besides that, it seems to be a twisted issue for the population. On one hand, everyone cheers when the other side is hit, but of course it&#180;s more than dangerous to live in these countries. But as long as the inhabitants are so separated into many political directions and opinions, it&#180;s hard to see them turning against their leaders and protest for peace.

Concerning oil prices, a rise of them would do the western world very good, because obviously we still think the delivery of oil (and gas) from unstable states or regions like the Middle East, far flung places like Iran or the dear EU-neighbour Russia would not severely interfere with our independence in other politicial issues. Just recently I walked past a vastly illuminated store window, and I thought, if that is possible, then energy is still not expensive enough.
But the high income from oil is in so far bad for states like Iran or Saudi-Arabia as they can calm down their inhabitants with money and subsidized prices, instead of investing it in education, for example.


Another issue that strikes me as slightly weird is the new twin-government of Poland, with Kaczynski-Brothers being president and prime minister. How are they supposed to control each other? Of course, also in other countries politicians are acting dependent on others, but this seems a more severe case.

 

[Taliesin]

Well, since Iran is behind the Hisbollah and their goal is to eradicate Israel from the maps, they kind of "benefit"
As for the punishment.. I dont know, sanctions seem a poor way to punish a country, since only the poorest suffer from the effects. As for punishing the leader, what do you want to charge him with? Attacking a souvereign country without being attacked before? Breaking international law?
I dont anyone's gonna do that, since the name George Bush kinda comes to mind.

I dont know if there's gonna be an end to that war anytime soon. Well, maybe the Isrealis are going to pull out of Lebanon, but the tensions in general will not go away for a long time. Not with Iran supporting the Hisbollah, not with Israel retaliating every single time and not with the Hamas refusing to accept Israel as a country of its own.
Maybe a proces of constant deradicalisation will lead to some kind of peace, but it's a long and rocky road if you ask me

 

[GONE Ridin' Hood]

I also think the war, at least in Middle East, is far from over. I mean, there has never been peace there, and there shan't be any now.

They might really go to an openly-declared war, how sad. But maybe it is time that they should end this once and for all.

 

[KitKat]

I am really sad for all these innocent people who are dying now every minute without possibility of safety. There is a lot of canadians in Liban and there are waiting to be evacuate. Government waited too long before sending boats to rescue our citizens !
Every second might be their last one. My collegue's family is there, waiting to come back. She is crying every time her phone rang because she thinks it'll be the worst she'll learn...
My knowledge in international politics are very limited, the best I can do is to send positive thoughts to everybody who is peaceful and didn't want this war.

I agree with LBRH... we won't see this part of the world in peace while we'll live.... Maybe our great-grand childrens, who knows...

 

[La Rocque]

Am I the only one who thinks the Jews are being excessive?
The Jews show up after wondering the Earth for 5000 years, the US arms them to the max, then does everything possible to keep the locals unarmed and now its like shooting fish in a barrel
W loves it, takes Iraq pretty much out of the main news

You can kill peoples but You can't kill ideas -

 

[GONE Ridin' Hood]

I agree with LBRH... we won't see this part of the world in peace while we'll live.... Maybe our great-grand childrens, who knows...

Well, IMO our great grand-children will have a really fucking tough time. I mean, even our generation is going to have it hard, since petrol will be extinct before we die. And then what will we do? Will there be enough alternative methods to support the entire human race?

And back to our great grand-children, they'll have it worse, because something terrible will have happened or will happen by that time. I picture them facing a terrible crisis concerning water and food, and then there's the pollution subject, they'll probably live in an ice age LOL. that's so sad.

I wonder if they will be able to handle it... . That's why we gotta help them now, by saving water and walking or biking instead of using things that burn petrol.

 

[KitKat]

Well, IMO our great grand-children will have a really fucking tough time. I mean, even our generation is going to have it hard, since petrol will be extinct before we die. And then what will we do? Will there be enough alternative methods to support the entire human race?

And back to our great grand-children, they'll have it worse, because something terrible will have happened or will happen by that time. I picture them facing a terrible crisis concerning water and food, and then there's the pollution subject, they'll probably live in an ice age LOL. that's so sad.

I wonder if they will be able to handle it... . That's why we gotta help them now, by saving water and walking or biking instead of using things that burn petrol.

I already do that !