The great and all powerful religion thread!

[cookiecutter]

Actually V5, Ack is right about this one. His heaven and hell discussion was purely a theological one.

EDIT: He should care about what the scriptures say in this case, because v-g was the guy who initially used them. They are talking about what the Bible says about heaven and hell, not whether those places are real.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

I guess we'll see how he responds.

 

[False Joe]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOWx5G76pkU&feature=related[/ame]

 

[Einherjar86]

Or consider the following scenario. Suppose I want Alter to be punched in the face. Further suppose that I know you would like to punch Alter in the face and that at some point you will have an opportunity to do so. Suppose that, knowing this, I implant a device in your brain which works in the following way: If you are in the presence of Alter and are on the verge of deciding not to punch him, the device intervenes and causes you to punch him in the face. However, if you decide to punch Alter in the face all on your own, the device does nothing at all. In this case it seems that I can know that you will inevitably punch Alter in the face, and that you will not be able to do otherwise. But intuitively it seems that you could still make a choice to punch Alter in the face. So if the example has the consequence I suppose it does, you can freely choose to do X even if you could not have done otherwise and somebody knows you will do X.

I would not have thought of this on my own. Very interesting stuff; this thread is like another level of learning for me, it's great (I don't get a chance to take many philosophy classes).

I'd like to continue with this, if you don't mind.

You raise an awesome point in that argument, but I'm wondering about the issue of "want." If the entity of God is the Christian entity (let's just say he exists, for the moment) then we can assume that he wants us to obey the doctrines laid out by the Bible. However, we know that many people eschew these values, and some people completely break from them. God wants all people to act according to the Ten Commandments. So we shalt not murder. But murderers exist in this world. He has not placed any "device" in their brains. So, even though he wants us all to obey him, he doesn't know if we all will.

Unless, of course, my idea of what God "wants" is completely incorrect. Perhaps God wants some people to disobey him because this reinforces the notion of "goodness." The people who disobey him serve to emphasize the glory of those who do. I think it's fair to say that what a "god" would want is something we can't rightly know, and thus it is ultimately impossible to argue about.

I'm sorry if my question is completely off-base or pointless. I'm trying to gain a bigger understanding of this philosophical argument. It's all really interesting to me.

 

[Dak]

Was lookiing at some more verse regarding hell/lake of fire and came across a concept I hadn't really thought of before. I guess I would need to know Hebrew to really get into it but I read an arguement that seams to hold some water (lol) that those cast into the lake of fire will actually be burned up entirely, at some point perishing.

I would have to look into it more deeply but it makes more sense at a glance to me than the [burning forever without being burnt].

 

[Zephyrus]

Revelation was written in Greek tbh.

 

[Dak]

But there are references to [final punishment] all throughout the Bible, and I am much more interested in what the OT has to say than the NT, since my personal opinion is that many of the letters aren't "inspired" regardless of whether they hold [spiritual value] or not.

 

[Zephyrus]

Revelation was an allegory for the Fall of Rome and the liberation of the Greeks, nothing more.

 

[Dak]

Obviously you haven't read Revelation in parallel to the Prophets.

 

[Zephyrus]

I have. John of Patmos did for the Greeks what Isaiah did for the Jews. He prophesied the coming of the Messiah to liberate his peoples from tyranny. He coded his message in allegory in order for it to be promulgated beneath the Roman police and not taken as a direct threat to Roman authority.

 

[Dak]

But there are a lot of things that haven't happened yet. If you insist though, that it is all "coded" I won't bother pulling up verses because you obviously don't take it literaly.

Of course there is some symbolism in Revelation, [beast rising from the sea] etc. But the references to [Armageddon] and the return of God for example , are pretty un-allegorical.

 

[BloodSword]

Do you believe in oxygen? When you go about your day breathing, do you see oxygen? But, each day somehow you know it's there. You do not question the fact that oxygen is present. For me, that's how my interpersonal relationship with Jesus exists. This is all faith based. Believing in someone/something that's not here, not tangible. It is not a physical connection. It is a spiritual one. If you have faith, and listen to your heart, then God will communicate with you. You must do the work and put forth the effort. Free will is what all of us are blessed with. You have a choice. Most on this forum will not agree, that's fine, which is our free will choice. It's not complex to my heart.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Did you just imply that believing in oxygen requires leap of faith?

 

[Dak]

Oxygen can be scientifically proven, and therefore requires no faith.

 

[Zephyrus]

Do you believe in oxygen? When you go about your day breathing, do you see oxygen? But, each day somehow you know it's there. You do not question the fact that oxygen is present. For me, that's how my interpersonal relationship with Jesus exists. This is all faith based. Believing in someone/something that's not here, not tangible. It is not a physical connection. It is a spiritual one. If you have faith, and listen to your heart, then God will communicate with you. You must do the work and put forth the effort. Free will is what all of us are blessed with. You have a choice. Most on this forum will not agree, that's fine, which is our free will choice. It's not complex to my heart.

How does Jesus communicate back to you? I was raised Catholic and prayed at mass and never in my life did I sense any response to my prayers, no voices in my head, no miracles beyond explanation. Not even anything I could call a psychological phenomenon.

And don't give me the "you didn't have enough faith" argument. I said those prayers under my own duress.

 

[Dak]

How does Jesus communicate back to you? I was raised Catholic and prayed at mass and never in my life did I sense any response to my prayers, no voices in my head, no miracles beyond explanation. Not even anything I could call a psychological phenomenon.

And don't give me the "you didn't have enough faith" argument. I said those prayers under my own duress.

Interestingly enough, the only time I have felt any communication from God I wasn't even praying. I don't think I have ever gotten anything from praying, at the time I prayed, other than maybe a feeling of peace.

The direct communication I have received (only a handful of times) was when I was about to [take the wrong fork in the road] in my life, metaphorically speaking. Kind of like "Don't do that, do the opposite" type of thing. And even that has only been within the last 3 years.

But that's me.

 

[AchrisK]

How does Jesus communicate back to you? I was raised Catholic and prayed at mass and never in my life did I sense any response to my prayers, no voices in my head, no miracles beyond explanation. Not even anything I could call a psychological phenomenon.

And don't give me the "you didn't have enough faith" argument. I said those prayers under my own duress.

I don't feel I have had any direct, out of the ordinary type of contact, or response to my prayers either.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Don't start quoting scripture when you don't even know what it is saying.

#1. The lake of fire and hell are two different things. I am splitting hairs, but the concept of hell as it stands is that right now there are people burning prior to the judgement. There is nothing in the Bible to substantiate this other than a parable.

#2. There is also very weak evidence to support that people go straight to heaven when they die. Regardless though of whether they do or not, the Bible is quite clear that after the events in Revelation the [saved] will spend eternity on earth.

None of this really goes contradicts my points about the Bible promising eternal torment (I don't care what it's called - Hell, Lake of Fire, Chamber of Loud Rap Music, etc.) for at least some group of sinners.

To claim God is being an asshole for for cleansing the world of people who said "fuck you" to make room for those who did not is being slightly hypocritical. If you had two kids, one of which hated you and despised the other kid, which one is probably going to ultimately get left out of the inheritance? Pretty much the same concept if you read the Bible without wearing "omg so gay"
glasses on.

I didn't claim just that. I'm claiming that Genesis 6 illustrates that God is not all-knowing, which is pretty much antithetical to every common definition of God (after all, if he's not all-knowing how could he make any of the predictions that occur in Revelation?).

And anyway, I don't need to use the Great Flood to show that God does "asshole-ish" things in the Bible. Just look at the passage Thoth-Amon referenced where he orders the killing of innocents.

Furthermore, the fact (Biblically speaking) that he sends people to eternal torment for what he considers to be "sin" is outlandishly cruel.

He's not going to agree, because I guarantee he gives no quarter to "scriptural evidence."

Actually V5, Ack is right about this one. His heaven and hell discussion was purely a theological one.

EDIT: He should care about what the scriptures say in this case, because v-g was the guy who initially used them. They are talking about what the Bible says about heaven and hell, not whether those places are real.

This.

Was lookiing at some more verse regarding hell/lake of fire and came across a concept I hadn't really thought of before. I guess I would need to know Hebrew to really get into it but I read an arguement that seams to hold some water (lol) that those cast into the lake of fire will actually be burned up entirely, at some point perishing.

I would have to look into it more deeply but it makes more sense at a glance to me than the [burning forever without being burnt].

Revelation 14 states, "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" regarding those who "worship the beast and his image", and Revelation 20 talks about eternal torment for the "beast and the false prophet". If you can find something in the Bible about the damned being killed at some point, feel free to post it, but it looks like the torment is meant to be eternal.

Revelation was an allegory for the Fall of Rome and the liberation of the Greeks, nothing more.

Could you give any examples of messages in Revelation that represent this? I'm interested to know where you got this idea.

Do you believe in oxygen? When you go about your day breathing, do you see oxygen? But, each day somehow you know it's there. You do not question the fact that oxygen is present. For me, that's how my interpersonal relationship with Jesus exists.

 

[Matt]

Part of my lack of faith recently has been because I've had numerous situations where I would desperately needed something to go my way and subsequently prayed heavily, and the worst possible outcome happened instead.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

It's all part of God's plan.