The great and all powerful religion thread!

[zabu of nΩd]

I think you forgot your medication today, dear.

 

[Zephyrus]

Could you give any examples of messages in Revelation that represent this? I'm interested to know where you got this idea.

Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the 1st century[19]. Preterist interpretations generally identify either Jerusalem or Pagan Rome as the persecutor of the Church, "Babylon", the "Mother of Harlots", etc. They see Armageddon as God's judgment on the Jews, carried out by the Roman army, which is identified as "the beast". Some preterists see the second half of Revelation as changing focus to Rome, its persecution of Christians, and the fall of the Roman Empire. It sees the Revelation being fulfilled in 70, thereby bringing the full presence of God to dwell with all humanity. It also holds that the Emperor Nero was possibly the number of the beast mentioned in the book as his name equals 666] in Hebrew[20] if using the Greek spelling of Nero's name (Neron Caesar), but using the Hebrew symbols with their assigned numeric values (an ancient method known as gematria). However, a few ancient manuscripts of the Revelation say the number is 616, fifty less than the more well known numeral. A possible method to this problem lies in early translation. In the assumption that the Revelation was meant to be distributed among the early Christians, it could very well be assumed that occasionally someone may have used the Latin spelling of Nero's name (Nero Caesar), so the total value of the gematria would be 616[

.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

It also holds that the Emperor Nero was possibly the number of the beast mentioned in the book as his name equals 666] in Hebrew[20] if using the Greek spelling of Nero's name (Neron Caesar)

Of course, one has to ask how hard it would be to interpret that as an allegory for any of a billion other historical events.

 

[Zephyrus]

Of course, one has to ask how hard it would be to interpret that as an allegory for any of a billion other historical events.

It's the most likely allegory, seeing as John was writing this letter to all the GREEK churches, in a land subject to ROMAN law.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Point taken. Not sure how you would ever go about proving a theory like that, though.

 

[Dak]

I didn't claim just that. I'm claiming that Genesis 6 illustrates that God is not all-knowing, which is pretty much antithetical to every common definition of God (after all, if he's not all-knowing how could he make any of the predictions that occur in Revelation?).

How does regretting an outcome mean he didn't see it coming? Then you start getting into free will and predestination on which you could go round and round with. I don't pretend to know the answer on that.

And anyway, I don't need to use the Great Flood to show that God does "asshole-ish" things in the Bible. Just look at the passage Thoth-Amon referenced where he orders the killing of innocents.

Furthermore, the fact (Biblically speaking) that he sends people to eternal torment for what he considers to be "sin" is outlandishly cruel.

Let's look at this practically. So lets say he had ordered them to wipe out everyone except the infants. Then what? They either die from no one to care for them, or they grow up, find out their parents were killed and turn into a whole new problem. People do get hurt by decisions that others make, and infants in this case were hurt from decisions made by the Amalekites as an entire nation.

As far as Rev 14 goes it is the only verse I have found that references eternal torment for humans. Rev 20 actually only references eternal torment for the Satan, false prophet, and the beast.There are a lot of other verses referencing a death of the soul.Either way, you are acting like there isn't an out. The asshole thing would be if there was no out.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11.

Edit: Also, you could say that it seams outlandishly cruel, but maybe thats because none of us understand how bad sin really is?

If you can find something in the Bible about the damned being killed at some point, feel free to post it, but it looks like the torment is meant to be eternal.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sounds final to me.

 

[skeptik]

All you need to do is to look at Job to see that even the Bible itself portrays God as, erm, less than omniscient.

 

[Alter]

Indeed, or, like I said earlier, just because God knows you'll do something doesn't mean you aren't doing it of your own accord. Punching Alter in the face is just awesome though. I don't see how anyone could choose not to.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

 

[Draconian]

Do you believe in oxygen? When you go about your day breathing, do you see oxygen? But, each day somehow you know it's there. You do not question the fact that oxygen is present. For me, that's how my interpersonal relationship with Jesus exists. This is all faith based. Believing in someone/something that's not here, not tangible. It is not a physical connection. It is a spiritual one. If you have faith, and listen to your heart, then God will communicate with you. You must do the work and put forth the effort. Free will is what all of us are blessed with. You have a choice. Most on this forum will not agree, that's fine, which is our free will choice. It's not complex to my heart.

Why dont you tie a stone to your leg and jump in the ocean? You can believe up some air while your down there.

 

[Blind Guardian]

And believe me a cheeseburger while you're at it, and some chili cheese plz.

 

[CAIRATH]

I really fucking want a cheeseburger right now.

 

[Valerie]

Out of nowhere, it's Cairath!

 

[seedofvengeance]

You're not a lady anymore

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Well it's not like she changed her name to MisterValerie.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

Point taken. Not sure how you would ever go about proving a theory like that, though.

there are several clues in Revelation that back up what Zeph is saying... such as the Seven Heads of the Beast being called Seven Hills and as everyone knows Rome was called the city on Seven Hills... etc. it's too much info to get into but Zeph is basically correct.

 

[Vimana]

One of the reasons I really doubt the credibility of the bible. Also in biblical times they didn't really have freedom of speech.

 

[Dak]

there are several clues in Revelation that back up what Zeph is saying... such as the Seven Heads of the Beast being called Seven Hills and as everyone knows Rome was called the city on Seven Hills... etc. it's too much info to get into but Zeph is basically correct.

The seven hills and spiritual Babylon are references to Jerusalem. Mis-interpretation comes from not reading all the other verses on the same subject.

And what in Job indicates un-omniscience?

Edit:

One of the reasons I really doubt the credibility of the bible. Also in biblical times they didn't really have freedom of speech.

Out of all the reasons to doubt the Bible's credibility, this one doesn't make any sense. There is a reason the prophets were getting killed, hint: it wasn't for saying what the kings wanted to hear.

 

[AchrisK]

Part of my lack of faith recently has been because I've had numerous situations where I would desperately needed something to go my way and subsequently prayed heavily, and the worst possible outcome happened instead.

I am sorry to hear this. But you can't expect to interface with God as with a vending machine. Only coming to him in times of trouble for a bailout. There is nothing in scripture which teaches this. In fact it says, "if you abide in me and my words abode in you, you will ask whatever you wish and it shall be given to you", which is a very conditional promise. I do not mean to minimize what you faced or patronize you in any way. I don't know your situation and I am making some presumptions about your relationship with God (forgive me if I am wrong). I can understand how that can affect one's faith, but faith is part of what is needed to get past a disappointment like this. Faith is not: just enough belief to convince God you are worthy of the requests you make. Faith is continuing to believe even in moments when it doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Dak]

I am sorry to hear this. But you can't expect to interface with God as with a vending machine. Only coming to him in times of trouble for a bailout. There is nothing in scripture which teaches this. In fact it says, "if you abide in me and my words abode in you, you will ask whatever you wish and it shall be given to you", which is a very conditional promise. I do not mean to minimize what you faced or patronize you in any way. I don't know your situation and I am making some presumptions about your relationship with God (forgive me if I am wrong). I can understand how that can affect one's faith, but faith is part of what is needed to get past a disappointment like this. Faith is not: just enough belief to convince God you are worthy of the requests you make. Faith is continuing to believe even in moments when it doesn't seem to make sense.

Another on that whole vending machine analogy.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may spend it in your pleasures.