The great and all powerful religion thread!

[skeptik]

The seven hills and spiritual Babylon are references to Jerusalem. Mis-interpretation comes from not reading all the other verses on the same subject.

There are so many things that have been attributed to Bible prophecy that to simply dismiss this is rather foolish and Christian.

And what in Job indicates un-omniscience?

Maybe the part where God asks Satan his opinion on Job, to which Satan responds that Job is pious because he is prosperous, and then in order to confirm his suspicions, God allows Satan to ruin Job's life to see if he would still be pious if he wasn't prosperous. Yeah, probably that part. You know, the one where he only knew that Job would be pious a posteriori. If he was omniscient he would have known this a priori and would not have had to test Job.

Out of all the reasons to doubt the Bible's credibility, this one doesn't make any sense. There is a reason the prophets were getting killed, hint: it wasn't for saying what the kings wanted to hear.

Recognizing that parts of the Bible were written as an allegory for actual events corresponding to the time period in which they were written doesn't make sense if it makes you doubt the credibility of the Bible?

Another on that whole vending machine analogy.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may spend it in your pleasures.

That's such an easy way of saying "God will answer your prayers. Oh, but if he doesn't answer your prayers, it's because you're not doing it right." In other words, the fact that the ratio of "prayers" being answered to the likelihood of those events happening anyway being exactly the same has nothing to do with the fact that those are simply the odds, but rather it's because the events that didn't come to pass were either not in God's plan or were not asked for right away.

 

[AchrisK]

That's such an easy way of saying "God will answer your prayers. Oh, but if he doesn't answer your prayers, it's because you're not doing it right." In other words, the fact that the ratio of "prayers" being answered to the likelihood of those events happening anyway being exactly the same has nothing to do with the fact that those are simply the odds, but rather it's because the events that didn't come to pass were either not in God's plan or were not asked for right away.

This runs much deeper than the way you said it. First off, these are instructions and teachings to Christians. Also, the gist of the whole things is, if you are in tune with God, you will generally be asking for things that are according to his will. In that case, he is likely to give it. That may seem narrow, but if one truly believes God to be who he is as revealed by the bible, then this is not a bad thing. I understand that from the outside it seems crazy, but on the inside it is not. Now I think this is not strickly how he works, and that he does evaluate every situation. I do not know what the prayer relationship between God and non-Christians is. So there is a lot I don't know. But I do know that unanswered prayer, or more properly, prayers answered with a "no" or a "wait", are no proof of the nonexistence or cruelty of God. I am sure plenty of Christians asked not to be martyred. We ALL face pain in this world, and it will not all be taken away, in this world.

 

[skeptik]

And prayers answered with a "yes" or "fuck yes I'll get right on that" are equally of no valuable proof of the existence of God. So basically prayer is completely and utterly irrelevant in determining whether or not God actually exists.

Prayer is a comfort to people who believe that it works, nothing more. It's just unfortunate when they believe it works and it doesn't, because it crushes them twice as hard as if they didn't believe, which is why I would prefer that they didn't.

 

[False Joe]

This thread is amazing.
Not only for humour value, but also for learning stuff.

 

[AchrisK]

And prayers answered with a "yes" or "fuck yes I'll get right on that" are equally of no valuable proof of the existence of God. So basically prayer is completely and utterly irrelevant in determining whether or not God actually exists.

Prayer is a comfort to people who believe that it works, nothing more. It's just unfortunate when they believe it works and it doesn't, because it crushes them twice as hard as if they didn't believe, which is why I would prefer that they didn't.

You are correct. I suppose a prayer for a miracle, and then a subsequent miracle could be proof to whomever witnessed it. But aside from that, it's not really proof. However, it could be evidence for some. Like to see a guy who was one way, then he gets saved and prays that God would help him be better in some way, then he becomes better in that way. That could be evidence which some individual (especially someone who has know the guy for a while) could evaluate and could lean them toward God. But, no. Not proof.

Your second paragraph is the exact type of oversimplification used by non-Christians, as well as uninformed Christians or Christians who want to manipulate people. EDIT: I agree with your sentiment here, but it need not be that way. If you are told that God will always heal you, or always take away your pain, then you can easily become disillusioned. If you are told that, if you have enough faith, God will heal you, then you are set up for a horrible fall. If you are told that giving money to TV evangelist A will cause God to move on your behalf, you will be disappointed. If not immediately, eventually. This is why it is good to understand what Christianity actually says.

 

[Dak]

Grrr, wrote a long reply that was eaten by IE.

Anyway, AcK covered most of what I said about prayer so I won't type all that back up but the bottom line is prayer is mainly our recognization of who God is, where everything comes from, and showing our love.
Most people do whatever they want and just throw up a "Gimme please Jesus" in some form or another and then wonder why [God doesn't talk to them/answer the prayer].

Even Jesus prayed and didn't get what He asked for, He still accepted the ultimate plan.

Luk 22:41 And he was parted from them about a stone's cast; and he kneeled down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared unto him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.

There are so many things that have been attributed to Bible prophecy that to simply dismiss this is rather foolish and Christian.

I am dismissing it as being an euphemism for Rome based off of tons of scripture in the prophets that correlate to Revelation and are specifically about Jerusalem and Israel. Not to mention, the majority of [Christians] do consider Babylon in edit: [Revelation] as Rome or America/New York regardless of whether or not they are preterist. It's not like I'm jumping on the majority bandwagon.

Maybe the part where God asks Satan his opinion on Job, to which Satan responds that Job is pious because he is prosperous, and then in order to confirm his suspicions, God allows Satan to ruin Job's life to see if he would still be pious if he wasn't prosperous. Yeah, probably that part. You know, the one where he only knew that Job would be pious a posteriori. If he was omniscient he would have known this a priori and would not have had to test Job.

The testing of Job was quite obviously proof for Satan. Re-read the God-Satan discourse parts of it. Satan accused Job of being faithful because of blessing. I'm sure that Satan would have just accepted a "Well I'm omniscient and he would be faithful regardless"......

Recognizing that parts of the Bible were written as an allegory for actual events corresponding to the time period in which they were written doesn't make sense if it makes you doubt the credibility of the Bible?

So if there are accurate allegories this doesn't make it credible? You didn't really make a point with this.

 

[skeptik]

You are correct. I suppose a prayer for a miracle, and then a subsequent miracle could be proof to whomever witnessed it. But aside from that, it's not really proof. However, it could be evidence for some. Like to see a guy who was one way, then he gets saved and prays that God would help him be better in some way, then he becomes better in that way. That could be evidence which some individual (especially someone who has know the guy for a while) could evaluate and could lean them toward God. But, no. Not proof.

I wouldn't call that "evidence," unless you allow for evidence to be obviously wrong. Sure, if somebody sees somebody messed up, and then that somebody prays to get better, and then he gets better, gets his life back on track, the first person may very well contribute this to the power of prayer. Actually both are likely to do that. But it still isn't evidence of anything. It says just as much, and most likely more, of the power of the placebo effect than of God's ability and willingness to answer prayers. Since, after all, atheists have gone through that same transformation as well without the power of prayer.

I will say this about prayer, however; it has a massive potentiality for the placebo effect. It has been demonstrably shown in studies that those who pray for recovery following a surgery, for example, and feel that they are being prayed for, recover more quickly than those who do not. The power of suggestion is mighty; this is something that I have always said, and that I try to incorporate into my own life. State of mind is the most powerful tool that we as humans naturally have access to. The way that we perceive things is greatly influenced by our state of mind, so if we can control that, we have a lot of power over how we experience things and potentially power over real, physical matters.

To demonstrate that state of mind truly has bodily effects one need only look at drug overdose cases. Time and time again we learn of drug overdoses from people who have taken the same amount of drugs that they are used to taking. Why do they overdose? Most often it's because they take the hit that they overdose in in a different place. When you know that you're about to take a hit and you go to the place that you consistently do it, your mind prepares your body for the event. If it doesn't have this opportunity for preparation, the same amount of drugs one takes with mental preparation that causes no immediate health risks can be lethal.

Your second paragraph is the exact type of oversimplification used by non-Christians, as well as uninformed Christians or Christians who want to manipulate people. EDIT: I agree with your sentiment here, but it need not be that way. If you are told that God will always heal you, or always take away your pain, then you can easily become disillusioned. If you are told that, if you have enough faith, God will heal you, then you are set up for a horrible fall. If you are told that giving money to TV evangelist A will cause God to move on your behalf, you will be disappointed. If not immediately, eventually. This is why it is good to understand what Christianity actually says.

It's true that those who believe this don't exactly follow the words that are in the Bible. This is, however, about what Christians actually do, not what the Bible tells them they're supposed to do, and I'm sure we both know people who were like this and didn't have their prayers answered and were subsequently crushed and lost faith, and this is why I prefer that this type of person at the very least does not pray, because it ends up hurting them more in the end.

 

[False Joe]

The testing of Job was quite obviously proof for Satan.

Why does God need to prove anything to Satan?
Seems abit stupid to me.
"YEAH BITCH, MY GUYS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS."

Luk 22:43 And there appeared unto him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.

Sounds like he got something, as opposed to "Save my kid".
"lolololololno"

 

[skeptik]

Grrr, wrote a long reply that was eaten by IE.

Anyway, AcK covered most of what I said about prayer so I won't type all that back up but the bottom line is prayer is mainly our recognization of who God is, where everything comes from, and showing our love.
Most people do whatever they want and just throw up a "Gimme please Jesus" in some form or another and then wonder why [God doesn't talk to them/answer the prayer].

Even Jesus prayed and didn't get what He asked for, He still accepted the ultimate plan.

Luk 22:41 And he was parted from them about a stone's cast; and he kneeled down and prayed,
Luk 22:42 saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared unto him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.

You should know by now that quoting passages from the Bible in which people not having their prayers answered proves nothing.

I am dismissing it as being an euphemism for Rome based off of tons of scripture in the prophets that correlate to Revelation and are specifically about Jerusalem and Israel. Not to mention, the majority of [Christians] do consider Babylon in edit: [Revelation] as Rome or America/New York regardless of whether or not they are preterist. It's not like I'm jumping on the majority bandwagon.

You are looking at the Bible as an entirely religious entity. You have to look at the Bible in the context of history and see that in it is nothing unique. You can't possibly even begin to understand its place in history and its relation to history until you can look at it as a historical text and not divinity.

The testing of Job was quite obviously proof for Satan. Re-read the God-Satan discourse parts of it. Satan accused Job of being faithful because of blessing. I'm sure that Satan would have just accepted a "Well I'm omniscient and he would be faithful regardless"......

You should probably reread it again. I've actually studied the book of Job specifically, actually, not that that is perfectly relevant. Satan planted the seed of doubt in the mind of God. God questioned whether or not Job would be pious without prosperity. God did not give Satan permission merely so that Satan could have evidence of Job's piety, but that he too could, because he was unsure.

So if there are accurate allegories this doesn't make it credible? You didn't really make a point with this.

You didn't make a point earlier, which is the problem that we're having now. The allegory that Zephyrus related with respect to the book in question is an accurate allegory, and you're saying that it's not credible. So in other words, you are the one who is saying that accurate allegories are not credible and are the one not making sense.

 

[Dak]

I wouldn't call that "evidence," unless you allow for evidence to be obviously wrong. Sure, if somebody sees somebody messed up, and then that somebody prays to get better, and then he gets better, gets his life back on track, the first person may very well contribute this to the power of prayer. Actually both are likely to do that. But it still isn't evidence of anything. It says just as much, and most likely more, of the power of the placebo effect than of God's ability and willingness to answer prayers. Since, after all, atheists have gone through that same transformation as well without the power of prayer.

I will say this about prayer, however; it has a massive potentiality for the placebo effect. It has been demonstrably shown in studies that those who pray for recovery following a surgery, for example, and feel that they are being prayed for, recover more quickly than those who do not. The power of suggestion is mighty; this is something that I have always said, and that I try to incorporate into my own life. State of mind is the most powerful tool that we as humans naturally have access to. The way that we perceive things is greatly influenced by our state of mind, so if we can control that, we have a lot of power over how we experience things and potentially power over real, physical matters.

I will agree with you on the state of mind thing to an extent. My belief that whatever happens, regardless whether or not I prayed for it, or against it etc, happens for reason makes it easier for me to move through unpleasant times. It also keeps me from going too "high" on the [rollercoaster of life] when things seem to be going great (as in, things going "my way").

It's true that those who believe this don't exactly follow the words that are in the Bible. This is, however, about what Christians actually do, not what the Bible tells them they're supposed to do, and I'm sure we both know people who were like this and didn't have their prayers answered and were subsequently crushed and lost faith, and this is why I prefer that this type of person at the very least does not pray, because it ends up hurting them more in the end.

If they are hurt it's from selfishness ultimately. They put what they wanted above what God wanted. Opposite of what the Bible teaches. See above prayer by Jesus.

 

[Dak]

You should know by now that quoting passages from the Bible in which people not having their prayers answered proves nothing.

My point was that prayer doesn't have to be answered as requested.

You are looking at the Bible as an entirely religious entity. You have to look at the Bible in the context of history and see that in it is nothing unique. You can't possibly even begin to understand its place in history and its relation to history until you can look at it as a historical text and not divinity.

/facepalm

It isn't unique? In what way? I never said it wasn't historical.

You should probably reread it again. I've actually studied the book of Job specifically, actually, not that that is perfectly relevant. Satan planted the seed of doubt in the mind of God. God questioned whether or not Job would be pious without prosperity. God did not give Satan permission merely so that Satan could have evidence of Job's piety, but that he too could, because he was unsure.

I reread everything God said just to be sure. At no point does he say anything about questioning Job's faithfulness. At the end He does rebuke Job's attitude of self-righteousness. That is completely different and also has no bearing on why he was tested in the first place.

You didn't make a point earlier, which is the problem that we're having now. The allegory that Zephyrus related with respect to the book in question is an accurate allegory, and you're saying that it's not credible. So in other words, you are the one who is saying that accurate allegories are not credible and are the one not making sense.

It's not an accurate allegory is my point. I have read the preterist stuff and to make their point they contridict themselves on definitions and have to completely ignore predictions in Matthew and the Major/Minor prophets that correlate to Revelation that are very specific about the events being in a short amount of time prior to the return of God in a physical manifestation.

 

[skeptik]

Common sense does for the non-religious what prayer does for the religious.

 

[AchrisK]

I wouldn't call that "evidence," unless you allow for evidence to be obviously wrong. Sure, if somebody sees somebody messed up, and then that somebody prays to get better, and then he gets better, gets his life back on track, the first person may very well contribute this to the power of prayer. Actually both are likely to do that. But it still isn't evidence of anything. It says just as much, and most likely more, of the power of the placebo effect than of God's ability and willingness to answer prayers. Since, after all, atheists have gone through that same transformation as well without the power of prayer.

I will say this about prayer, however; it has a massive potentiality for the placebo effect. It has been demonstrably shown in studies that those who pray for recovery following a surgery, for example, and feel that they are being prayed for, recover more quickly than those who do not. The power of suggestion is mighty; this is something that I have always said, and that I try to incorporate into my own life. State of mind is the most powerful tool that we as humans naturally have access to. The way that we perceive things is greatly influenced by our state of mind, so if we can control that, we have a lot of power over how we experience things and potentially power over real, physical matters.

I believe we can agree that evidence is just stuff, and what it leads one to decide is a separate matter. The same thing could be evidence for two or more possible conclusions. One could easily conclude that messed up guy benefited from whatever positive elements he received in believing that he has found a truth higher than himself and a powerful being which loves him. One could just as easily wonder if there really is something to that God stuff. Especially when we are talking about someone who knows this individual and hes seen his other attempts at success, and notices a difference this time. But again, it could be seen either way.

Consider your second paragraph in that light. Is it evidence for the placebo effect, or is it evidence for a God who exists and is interested in the lives of his creation? Obviously preconceived ideas lead many people to one or the other conclusion right away, but I tend to think neither of those people is necessarily correct all the time.

To demonstrate that state of mind truly has bodily effects one need only look at drug overdose cases. Time and time again we learn of drug overdoses from people who have taken the same amount of drugs that they are used to taking. Why do they overdose? Most often it's because they take the hit that they overdose in in a different place. When you know that you're about to take a hit and you go to the place that you consistently do it, your mind prepares your body for the event. If it doesn't have this opportunity for preparation, the same amount of drugs one takes with mental preparation that causes no immediate health risks can be lethal.

I comepletely agree that the mind has much power, even over the physical (especially one's own body). Thus I can't claim to know when exactly God did something and when he didn't. But I do believe that we are his creation and that all good things come from him (to all people). I can still confidently thank him for good things that happen.

It's true that those who believe this don't exactly follow the words that are in the Bible. This is, however, about what Christians actually do, not what the Bible tells them they're supposed to do, and I'm sure we both know people who were like this and didn't have their prayers answered and were subsequently crushed and lost faith, and this is why I prefer that this type of person at the very least does not pray, because it ends up hurting them more in the end.

I understand what you're saying, and agree, and hate, that this happens. But I don't think it is cause to throw out the whole thing.

 

[AchrisK]

...
You should probably reread it again. I've actually studied the book of Job specifically, actually, not that that is perfectly relevant. Satan planted the seed of doubt in the mind of God. God questioned whether or not Job would be pious without prosperity. God did not give Satan permission merely so that Satan could have evidence of Job's piety, but that he too could, because he was unsure.
...

I am curious to know what study guide you used, or where you came up with these ideas going into the study of Job. I am assuming you had them going in, or at least some idea of finding something like that.

 

[cookiecutter]

there are several clues in Revelation that back up what Zeph is saying... such as the Seven Heads of the Beast being called Seven Hills and as everyone knows Rome was called the city on Seven Hills... etc. it's too much info to get into but Zeph is basically correct.

My sociology of religion professor also agreed with this conclusion.

And prayers answered with a "yes" or "fuck yes I'll get right on that" are equally of no valuable proof of the existence of God. So basically prayer is completely and utterly irrelevant in determining whether or not God actually exists.

Prayer is a comfort to people who believe that it works, nothing more. It's just unfortunate when they believe it works and it doesn't, because it crushes them twice as hard as if they didn't believe, which is why I would prefer that they didn't.

Agreed.

AcK I think you made a good point about it not being clear whether the effect of personal prayer is placebo as believed by skeptics or divine as believed by the religious. However I think to solve this we can look at prayer studies where the recipient of prayer is not aware they are being prayed for. Surely this shouldn't matter to God, yet there is no noticeable difference in the recovery of the prayer recipient if he does not know he is being prayed for.

Also try a thought experiment. Shows like the 700 Club regularly claim to have prayer-cured people of cancer, but they never cure people of obvious afflictions, like a loss of a limb. Surely this is within God's power yet you know that if every single good Christian prayed for someone's leg to grow back it would never happen. Cancer is a much deadlier problem that God supposedly cures all the time, why cannot he not grow back a limb?

In terms of prayer I tend to agree with Feuerbach who saw prayer as humanity giving ear to its own desires.

 

[Zephyrus]

You could also use the example of the group that knew it was being prayed for, and due to "performance anxiety" their heart conditions got worse.

 

[AchrisK]

AcK I think you made a good point about it not being clear whether the effect of personal prayer is placebo as believed by skeptics or divine as believed by the religious. However I think to solve this we can look at prayer studies where the recipient of prayer is not aware they are being prayed for. Surely this shouldn't matter to God, yet there is no noticeable difference in the recovery of the prayer recipient if he does not know he is being prayed for.

I don't know if this is an actual study that exists, but I can see logically how, if it does, it could cause one to favor the placebo idea. But what I also think, is that God is not likely a willing lab rat who doesn't realize people might be doing studies on his ways. Imagine if you were the supreme being. What would you think of this? If you were the supreme being that the Atheists think you should be, then obviously you would cooperate with the study in hopes that more people would believe in you. But in my experience, and that of most people, God (assuming he exists) is not the God that the Atheists think he should be, agreed? He seems more than willing to allow people to continue in disbelief, if that is what they want.

In support of this there is Deuteronomy 6:16: "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah." This was also quoted by Jesus when tempted by the Devil.

Also Matthew 14:1-4 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Also try a thought experiment. Shows like the 700 Club regularly claim to have prayer-cured people of cancer, but they never cure people of obvious afflictions, like a loss of a limb. Surely this is within God's power yet you know that if every single good Christian prayed for someone's leg to grow back it would never happen. Cancer is a much deadlier problem that God supposedly cures all the time, why cannot he not grow back a limb?

Well, I cannot say that I believe what I see on the 700 Club. I think there are a lot of people out there making money by manipulating people and their desire to know God. God does things for reasons, and I don't know what they are. I believe that God could grow a limb back, and can cure cancer, but I do not know what his reason or timing are all about. You hear all around people who claim to have been cured, but you apparently don't have a bunch of public documentation of these things. There are instances in the NT when Jesus heals someone and tells them not to go telling everyone. Why is that? I don't exactly know, but you can see the consistency. It seems to me God is primarily interested in individuals, and is not interested in giving skeptics a sign. The Pharisees were right there and saw so much of what he did, and continued to choose to disbelieve. I do not think a sign is even close to enough to convince someone of something they don't want to believe, and I don't think God is interested in doing that anyway.

In terms of prayer I tend to agree with Feuerbach who saw prayer as humanity giving ear to its own desires.

What about a man who prays for humility? A man who prays for his enemies? A man who is sick praying for healing, but adding in that he pray for God's will above all, regardless of what it is? I think you and Feuerbach are confused as to what Christianity teaches.

 

[Zephyrus]

I don't know if this is an actual study that exists

When you read The God Delusion there's a whole section about scientific studies regarding prayer for the sick. It concluded that prayer is not any more effective than no prayer at all. It's worse if you consider the performance anxiety I mentioned earlier.

But of course you have the "testing God" cop-out to rest upon.

It's awesome that the International Day of Prayer is also International Atheist Give Blood Day. For 1,000 hands clasped in prayer cannot do what one donor's pint of blood can.

 

[Dak]

I would also point out that both myself and AcK at least, also hold the belief that prayer does not exist to [get what you want] which is how it is treated by the majority in all religions.

I don't hold my breath on event outcomes based off of what I think would be best for me. Those that do purely because they threw up a "Gimme please,Jesus" are delusional.

 

[Zephyrus]

In that case prayer becomes no more than socializing with an imaginary friend, whom you feel a deep emotional connection with, to make up for the lack of love you should be seeking with friends, family and significant others.