The great and all powerful religion thread!

Jesus clearly stated that He was not there to abolish (do away with) the Law(Torah) or the prophets, and that anyone who believed so and taught others that would be least in the kingdom of heaven.

He also stated he was there to "fulfill" the Torah and the prophets.

Fulfill
1 archaic : to make full : fill <her subtle, warm, and golden breath&#8230;fulfills him with beatitude &#8212; Alfred Tennyson>
2 a : to put into effect : execute b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) c : to bring to an end d : to measure up to : satisfy

Now granted one of the definitions is "to bring to an end", which is how plenty of Christian denominations translate it. But that is obviously ludicrous if you substitute that into the context.

When you look at everything else said in the context, "to make full" or "to put into effect" or to "Satisfy" are the only options that can make sense. Jesus never sinned, so that means he kept the entire Torah (again, excluding commands to the temple workers). He also met all the messianic prophecies in the Prophets. This would be "meeting the requirements" or "satisfying".

By taking the commands to a deeper understanding, this would also count as "filling full".
 
Cool, but that still makes no fucking sense. You didn't even explain anything. You gave a definition of a word I could have easily looked up (and btw, that word wasn't even part of my contention, so GOOD JOB).

You still have yet to explain how the incredible dissonances between God and Jesus' actions are handwaved by apologists. I can go read about this whenever I want, but it makes no sense at all and is ridiculous. So, it'd be nice if you could explain it for us godless people who are clearly bereft of His grace.
 
I think another huge difference between the Old and New Testaments that points to a distinct difference in teachings is the figure of Satan. I'm at work now so I don't have access to specific passages (I'll try and post later this evening), but the figure of Satan changes drastically from the Old to the New Testament. In the OT he's actually referenced simply as an assistant of God, carrying out God's dirty work (God permits Satan to tempt Job away from his faith); but in the New Testament, Satan becomes the embodiment of evil, that which is anathema to God. I think the reason for this is that the ideas of sin and evil have been shifted, and the idea of God as a punisher has been replaced by the forgiveness of Christ.

I'll try and look up some more support for this later.
 
According to Christian apologists, God follows up his wrath very frequently in the OT with signs that he is willing to forgive and extremely slow to anger; these are still present in the NT but there is a definite shift.
 
I don't see any dissonances, unless you are suggesting that because Jesus didn't walk around throwing lightning bolts at people he is somehow different from His Father. But God didn't do that either.

Everyone probably knows John 3:16, which opens up with "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son".

Love =/= no punishment. Jesus is the Son of God and stated several times He was only on earth to do the will of God. He also called people to repent of their sins. Sin is disobeying Torah, which was handed from God to Moses. There is no dissonance.


If you were expecting someone coming and "throwing lightning bolts", that is what Jesus does at his return during Armageddon.
 
I'm pretty sure Noah had to build a big ass boat because of God's punishment. Which is why afterward he was all "oh shit what the fuck did I just do? Dude, I swear, I'll never destroy mankind via flood again (though I reserve the right to destroy mankind in other ways *wink*)."
 
I love the inserted "Oh shit what the fuck did I just do". Totally in there.

Conveniently ignoring:

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I could go into the whole Nephilim tie in but don't feel like dragging all that up, because it involves a lot of apocryphal/extra-biblical writings.

Edit: As far as destruction in the future (not by flood), Jesus mentions it regarding his return:

Matthew 24
37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

and a few verses earlier referencing the tribulation:

22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
 
Okay, here's where I'm coming from regarding the difference between the OT and NT:

Throughout the OT the Lord is continually associated with Satanic or "evil" spirits. In Samuel 16:14-15, it states that "the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. And Saul's servants said to him, 'See now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.'"

2 Samuel 24:1 states: "Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go, count the people of Israel and Judah." 1 Chronicles offers a similar passage: "Satan stood up against Israel," it says, "and incited David to count the people of Israel." The passages are the same, except that "the wrath of the Lord" has been replaced with "Satan," further associating the two entities.

The Book of Job portrays Satan as God's servant, asking the Lord if he can tempt Job to demonstrate that the man doesn't really love Him (Job 1:9-12).

These are all examples of Satan as nothing more than a servant, or extension, of God; he is a limb of God's wrath, a tool through which God enacts his rage.

In the NT, Satan takes on a whole new life as the embodiment of evil; an entity separate from God, and anathema to Him.

This is partially because, throughout the NT, the Jewish priests are constantly associated with Satan and evil. The Book of Mark, chapter 10 verses 33-34, says that "The chief priests and scribes [&#8230;] will condemn [the Son of Man] to death, and hand him over to the nations, and they shall mock him and spit upon him, flog him and kill him."

In the Book of John, 8:44, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires."

Luke 4:1-13 describes Satan's temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, offering him wealth and authority over all the kingdoms of the world. This is clearly meant to identify wealth and success with evil; an idea that would have been considered outrageous by the non-Christian contemporaries of the Gospel writers.

All these NT passages are examples by which Jesus seeks to overturn previously established Jewish social norms, and the Gospel writers perpetuate this by associating the Jewish high priests and Pharisees with Satan and evil (this is also the source for the unfortunate outcome of antisemitism among many Christians throughout history).

I'm sorry for the long-winded response, but basically my point is that there is a difference in doctrine between the OT and NT because the idea of sin is different; it's been internalized. Perhaps sin was internal in the OT to the extent that simply by coveting another's wife one was committing sin; but there was no way to punish such a sin, and no hierarchal system could form from it. Therefore, action became important because it was a means by which the Hebrews could punish perpetrators and thus conserve the "balance" (just as God set His wrath against the Hebrews when they were disobedient or sinful). Jesus seeks to overturn the balance, which is why he speaks to the poor in the Sermon on the Mount. In the NT, it is not only sinful to sleep with another man's wife, but it is also sinful to take that man's life and punishment into your own hands. Retribution itself becomes sinful. Furthermore, it is wrong and unnecessary even for God to act vengefully against the Hebrews, because Christ has come to bear the burden of our sins.

Before Christ's birth, Israel was a sinful nation, and therefore their punishments were logically accounted for as God's wrath. However, after the arrival of Jesus, salvation takes a new turn; he has come to die for the sins of humanity, and he reminds the Jews of their sins in his quoting of Isaiah and the parable of the vineyard. In this way, Christianity recognizes a clear combative action between the forces of good and evil. Opposition is no longer God's wrath upon His chosen people, and Satan is no longer His prosecuting attorney, doing his dirty work; but rather, Satan has become the opposition to the divine plan, symbolizing the efforts made against Jesus. This is further evidenced by the New Testament's influence on interpretation of the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis, Satan is never mentioned as the tempter who lures Eve in the garden, but it became common knowledge to equate the tempter-serpent with Satan after John of Patmos identified Satan as the "serpent of old."
 
Okay, here's where I'm coming from regarding the difference between the OT and NT:

Throughout the OT the Lord is continually associated with Satanic or "evil" spirits. In Samuel 16:14-15, it states that "the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him. And Saul's servants said to him, 'See now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.'"

This does not necessarily mean Satan, as any time he is mentioned it is by name/or otherwise obvious (as in the garden).

2 Samuel 24:1 states: "Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go, count the people of Israel and Judah." 1 Chronicles offers a similar passage: "Satan stood up against Israel," it says, "and incited David to count the people of Israel." The passages are the same, except that "the wrath of the Lord" has been replaced with "Satan," further associating the two entities.

I need to do some deeper digging into these two passages.

The Book of Job portrays Satan as God's servant, asking the Lord if he can tempt Job to demonstrate that the man doesn't really love Him (Job 1:9-12).

This is way off.

Job 1:6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

All it does is show that Satan does not reside in heaven (there are other references to where he was thrown out of heaven along with the other angels who rebelled with him), and was not counted among the "good" angels. He also, as a spirit, apparently still had access to come into heaven.

The general understanding is of him (even then) as an accuser, trying to "drag down" as many with him as possible.


In the NT, Satan takes on a whole new life as the embodiment of evil; an entity separate from God, and anathema to Him.

This is partially because, throughout the NT, the Jewish priests are constantly associated with Satan and evil. The Book of Mark, chapter 10 verses 33-34, says that "The chief priests and scribes […] will condemn [the Son of Man] to death, and hand him over to the nations, and they shall mock him and spit upon him, flog him and kill him."

In the Book of John, 8:44, Jesus says to the Pharisees, "You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires."

Considering that the Pharisee's placed a higher importance on the "Oral Law" (the Talmud), which in many instances completely contradicts the Torah, this accusation was on point.

Luke 4:1-13 describes Satan's temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, offering him wealth and authority over all the kingdoms of the world. This is clearly meant to identify wealth and success with evil; an idea that would have been considered outrageous by the non-Christian contemporaries of the Gospel writers.

It was not meant to identify wealth with evil. Satan was attempting to get Jesus to sin (by breaking the 1st Commandment), and offering a reward to him for doing so. Which was ridiculous, because Jesus would get all that he was being offered anyway upon his second return.
If Satan had gotten Jesus to sin, his dying on the cross would have been pointless. His goal was to nullify the sacrifice so there was no salvation.

All these NT passages are examples by which Jesus seeks to overturn previously established Jewish social norms, and the Gospel writers perpetuate this by associating the Jewish high priests and Pharisees with Satan and evil (this is also the source for the unfortunate outcome of antisemitism among many Christians throughout history).

As stated earlier, Jesus never advocated breaking Torah. The Pharisees and Sadducees (the religious leaders), placed higher value on teachings that many times contradicted Torah. He was trying to overturn the "norm", to bring Israel back to the original order the Father set down. Roughly half of Jesus' conversations/teachings begin with a scripture reference from the OT. I could quote all these instances but it would take pages.

I'm sorry for the long-winded response, but basically my point is that there is a difference in doctrine between the OT and NT because the idea of sin is different; it's been internalized. Perhaps sin was internal in the OT to the extent that simply by coveting another's wife one was committing sin; but there was no way to punish such a sin, and no hierarchal system could form from it. Therefore, action became important because it was a means by which the Hebrews could punish perpetrators and thus conserve the "balance" (just as God set His wrath against the Hebrews when they were disobedient or sinful).

This is true to a point. Punishment required two or more witnesses, and there are no witnesses to thought. But obviously that didn't make thinking about it ok.

Jesus seeks to overturn the balance, which is why he speaks to the poor in the Sermon on the Mount. In the NT, it is not only sinful to sleep with another man's wife, but it is also sinful to take that man's life and punishment into your own hands. Retribution itself becomes sinful. Furthermore, it is wrong and unnecessary even for God to act vengefully against the Hebrews, because Christ has come to bear the burden of our sins.

There is nowhere where it says it's wrong for God to take vengence against the Hebrews. In fact, at the time of the writing, ten or eleven of the twelve tribes were still scattered, and Jesus prophecied the sacking of Jerusalem by Rome.
Sin is covered that is repented of, not those living in it (the Pharisees for example).

Before Christ's birth, Israel was a sinful nation, and therefore their punishments were logically accounted for as God's wrath. However, after the arrival of Jesus, salvation takes a new turn; he has come to die for the sins of humanity, and he reminds the Jews of their sins in his quoting of Isaiah and the parable of the vineyard. In this way, Christianity recognizes a clear combative action between the forces of good and evil. Opposition is no longer God's wrath upon His chosen people, and Satan is no longer His prosecuting attorney, doing his dirty work; but rather, Satan has become the opposition to the divine plan, symbolizing the efforts made against Jesus. This is further evidenced by the New Testament's influence on interpretation of the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis, Satan is never mentioned as the tempter who lures Eve in the garden, but it became common knowledge to equate the tempter-serpent with Satan after John of Patmos identified Satan as the "serpent of old."

I don't have any more time at the moment, but I am pretty sure there are references to him in this fashion in the Prophets. Will have to get back to you on that.
But considering that John was shown everything he was by God, I would imagine this basic understanding wouldn't have been withheld, not to mention if he grew up hearing Torah read in the synagogue on a weekly basis (the serpant-Satan connection must have been taught or it would have been addressed as major false doctrine)/got to hear Jesus way more than what's even written, it is probably an accurate assessment.
 
Everyone probably knows John 3:16, which opens up with "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son".

"[SIZE=-1]As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. [/SIZE]"
 
tadah_jesus.jpg
 
That's blatantly retarded. Christian theology does not hold that God created man and woman with original sin.
 
Since when? The whole point of Jesus dying was to save man from original sin.

Yeah, and as I said before God did not create man with original sin. Original sin occurred after the creation. How does what you mention about Jesus change anything?
 
It really depends on your definition of "original sin." I would think it could refer to the capability of people to sin.