The next superduperstars . . .

[JayKeeley]

That's where I'm going with these threads. I have nothing against mainstream music . . . it's just that most of it sucks. If Nevermore signs to Epic Records and tours with Metallica, I'll still like them as long as they don't change their style to a more "pop" oriented approach (which always helps in the quest for being mainstream).

npearce - you're missing the story here - Nevermore can indeed sign to Epic, tour with Metallica, and yet make "Politics of Ecstasy part II". They'll still be deemed sellouts. It is the actions of the band that outweighs the importance of their music.

 

[Nate The Great]

I've never really cared whether a band is labeled sell-outs or not. So that argument gets no reaction from me. I don't think Cave In are sell outs even thought they went from brutal noisecore to touring with Foo Fighters and signing to RCA. They simply changed their musical style to fit their personalities.

I know what you're saying about a band selling out just because they sell some CD's, but I don't really care about any of that.

For me, the new Arch Enemy sucked because of the music. Same with the new Cradle. My dislike of their newer music has nothing to do with their CD sales.

 

[Papa Josh]

Your discussions above are exactly why I started these threads.

I honestly don't care if a band makes it into the mainstream . . . as long as they don't compromise the music that got them their (Cradle of Filth for example).

[=/QUOTE]

They are the perfect example of a band that has toured hard and SOLD LOTS OF MERCHANDISE, which according to Dreamlord, would make them full of integrity.

How have they compromised their sound to get into the mainstream? Damnation and a Day is a major label release and sounds lile Dusk and her Embrace.

It's funny how a lot of the bands these two (Dreamlord/npearce) pick on are some of the hardest working, touring, writing musicians out there.

 

[NAD]

Damnation and a Day is a major label release and sounds lile Dusk and her Embrace.

Damn, I guess I really do need to pick that one up.

 

[J.]

I think npearce was saying that CoF have not compromised their sound.

 

[J.]

They are the perfect example of a band that has toured hard and SOLD LOTS OF MERCHANDISE, which according to Dreamlord, would make them full of integrity

When did I say that if a band sells lots of merchandise, they are full of integrity?

 

[JayKeeley]

I think npearce was saying that CoF have not compromised their sound.

Hmm, I thought he was saying that they had indeed made the compromise.

"For me, the new Arch Enemy sucked because of the music. Same with the new Cradle."

??

 

[JayKeeley]

OK missed this somehow...

Are we talking strictly metal bands here? I'm going to assume we are. Again, my point was that NO BAND should start playing metal with the SOLE intent of becoming successful (ie. living off the band).

BUT WHAT IF THE BAND JUST HAPPENS TO LIKE MUSIC THAT IS ALSO CONSIDERED POPULAR? Nasheim are hardly making Power Metal or Melo-Death demos now are they? And even then, it's all still underground music.

You're getting extremely confused between music that you "dislike" and music that truly lacks integrity (e.g. Britney Spears and N' Sync). ALL METAL IS UNDERGROUND. You've got so caught up in all this that you've become delusional. You're actually ranking differing levels of 'underground'. So, yes, Helloween sell more records than Xasthur, but they're hardly getting to #1 on the billboard charts are they? Put it into perspective.

I bet the same can be said for the majority of metal bands. But then as time goes on, bands start looking at ways to get a bit more money, then just a bit more, and pretty soon, everything is compromised.

But again, only in your opinion, right? That "compromise" that you refer to might be "a change for the better" for someone else, no? Each to their own.

You're putting words in my mouth. I do not like any of those bands, but "don't like" does equal "hate". Hell, I admit to liking Tool's Aenima.

Well, your posts normally refer to bands as 'being the best thing since sliced bread' or 'total shit'. There is very rarely an in between so I'm commenting on your standard posts, not what you truly believe behind your posts.

Plus, ALL the money I make off eBay goes right back into my CD collection, which means I'm putting every cent I earn from selling autographs and CDs back into the metal bands I love. That's integrity.

Well, in that respect, you have no idea what a band does with its money so you can't comment on how they spend it.

And wouldn't there be MORE integrity in selling hard to find items to a die-hard fan at the price you paid (plus shipping) as opposed to selling them at a profit? Your main intention to sell the item is to make money, not share something with another fan, otherwise you wouldn’t mark up the price!!!!1111

 

[Nate The Great]

I don't think the new Cradle is anything like their old stuff. I'll admit it is at least less compromised than the new Dimmu. I don't really think either of those bands "sold out". I just think they both took a more basic approach to their music. Nothing wrong with that, I just like the old stuff better. Normally I like change in an artist, but certain bands seem to dumb down their sound for some reason. Is it for more success? I don't know. Hopefully not. The new Cradle is nothing like Dusk and Her Embrace . . . in my opinion.

 

[lizard]

you don't have them as a choice but I would say Lullacry would stand a hell of a chance of making it "big." Tanja, the new singer, is hotttt, and she can slam a beer like any good Finn (as seen in the "Don't Touch the Flame" vid). The music is clearly metal but non-gimmicky.

p.s. that is, they could make it big if century media had any experience in the music mainstream.

 

[J.]

BUT WHAT IF THE BAND JUST HAPPENS TO LIKE MUSIC THAT IS ALSO CONSIDERED POPULAR? Nasheim are hardly making Power Metal or Melo-Death demos now are they? And even then, it's all still underground music.

You're getting extremely confused between music that you "dislike" and music that truly lacks integrity (e.g. Britney Spears and N' Sync). ALL METAL IS UNDERGROUND. You've got so caught up in all this that you've become delusional. You're actually ranking differing levels of 'underground'. So, yes, Helloween sell more records than Xasthur, but they're hardly getting to #1 on the billboard charts are they? Put it into perspective.

Jay, there are three types of underground bands, and I'm going to assume we're talking strictly abouit metal, not Britney Spears:

1. The underground band that sticks to their guns, and plays the music that got them their fans in the first place. They don't give a fuck about living off the band or moving into another place so he/she doesn't have to live with his/her sister anymore. THey put the fans ahead of money. This type of band will never make much money because many fans can't handle it, and there is zero chance of getting mainstream attention.

2. The underground band that starts off playing a more "popular" brand of metal (power metal, melo-death) and garner a fairly large fanbase from the beginning. I'm assuming these bands are doing it bewcause they love it, and not just jumping on the hype bandwagon, but there is no way to tell. I relly have no problem with these bands.

3. The underground metal band that started as a #1 or #2 band and then compromised their image/music/whatever to get a larger fanbase and thus, more money. These bands put money ahead of the fans which got them their in the first place. THese bands probably tasted the fruits of what money can bring, and decided that money is more important. Die-hard fans can spin it any way they want with the "the band evolved" shit, but c'mon, lets be serious.

But again, only in your opinion, right? That "compromise" that you refer to might be "a change for the better" for someone else, no? Each to their own.

Opinion or not, you have to be blind to see the band didn't compromise something, even if you like the compromise.

And wouldn't there be MORE integrity in selling hard to find items to a die-hard fan at the price you paid (plus shipping) as opposed to selling them at a profit? Your main intention to sell the item is to make money, not share something with another fan, otherwise you wouldn’t mark up the price!!!!1111

Dude, it's eBay. I LOSE money sometimes. The way I figure it, a die-hard is the one I sell it to, because he wanted to win the auction more than the others. I NEVER mark up the price. Look at the magazine I sold. It started at $1 with $3 shipping. That DOES NOT even cover the price I paid for the magazine is the first place. If the price goes up, then I assume it's a battle between two die-hard bidders.

Hell, I sell my CDs sometimes. I paid anywhere from $7 to $16 for them. THey sell on eBay from anywhere to $4 to $10. THat's hardly coming out even. But I would rather sell the item to a fan that will use the CD than have it collect dust on my shelf.

 

[JayKeeley]

The thing that you're not getting is that it doesn't matter to me what the agenda is behind the music AS LONG AS THE MUSIC ITSELF KICKS ASS. That's it - that's ALL that counts, the music. NOTHING ELSE IS TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION.

We listen to bands that have convicted murderers as musicians, we listen to bands that preach the word of God and others that preach the word of Satan. We have Nazi crap like "Aryan Terrorism", and we have bands that shroud their devout racism (albeit not very well) behind an agenda of white European historic pride blah blah. Somewhere, someone in the world is going to be offended by these types of bands, but we (as intellectual listeners) still choose to put the MUSIC ahead of the political/religous agenda (as long as the music itself is worthwhile of course).

In that exact same regard, I'm not about to start assessing the financial returns of a band, or whether they stepped over their grandmother to make money, how they made their money, or indeed even how they spend their so-earned money (and whether their integrity is intact because they "spend their money on buying more CDs"). I'll never discriminate when choosing what meets my "criteria of integrity" as long as the music itself speaks wonders.

Finally, the RC forum is representative of the 'Zine itself. We'll review all bands and give everyone a fair shot based on their music as a priority. If a writer feels uncomfortable reviewing something, then someone else will do the job, no problem. It's been working that way since March now and so far we've done a bang up job IMO. I'm trying my hardest to prevent this forum from turning into a place where the musical opinions of others are constantly dismissed in such a 'passive-aggressive' manner with the hope of starting reactionary debates such as this one.

People here like Power Metal. People here like Arch Enemy. People here like bands that are musically and financially succesful, such as Iron Maiden. People here like the music that you don't. You have to learn to tolerate that and live with it. We are all aware of Willowtip and Relapse. We are all aware of Mastodon, Goatsblood, and Khanate. Leave it to us to decide whether we'll like it or not.

I'll let you have the final word, then I'm sticking this thread.

 

[J.]

The thing that you're not getting is that it doesn't matter to me what the agenda is behind the music AS LONG AS THE MUSIC ITSELF KICKS ASS. That's it - that's ALL that counts, the music. NOTHING ELSE IS TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION.

That is where you and I differ.

In response to everything else you said - Fair Enough.

 

[Erik]

I mostly just agree with what Dreamlord says when it comes to discussing these matters, but I still do NOT buy his eBay profiteering argument. It doesn't make sense. As I've said before, if you hadn't picked up an album you didn't need for cheap and sold it off for a profit, someone who wanted it would have gotten a chance to buy it for the cheap price.

 

[Erik]

Which reminds me, if anyone wants Eucharist's "Mirrorworlds," original pressing, for about $5 then let me know. I can get it in a local store (same one that had the earlier copy I sent to JayKeeley, oddly since this is a very small town with a small record store)

Or we can trade against something I want. There shall be no eBaying here! I will, however, happily relay the album to someone who wants it... For a non-inflated price.

 

[J.]

pffftt, you both act like I make a killing selling stuff on eBay. Like I said, I LOSE money sometimes. And I don't know why it hasn't sunk into your skulls that I DO NOT INFLATE THE PRICE!!!

I currently have two CDs up for auction. Both started at $2.50. If they sell for $2.50 plus shipping, I will make $5.50 (minus shipping costs). I paid about $12 for each. So technically, I lost about $10 on the CD. Oh man, I'm rollin' in the money now.

 

[Erik]

Bet you are.

Heh. We've discussed this to death already... so I'm just going to leave it. And this album is totally blowing me away.

 

[J.]

Yes, Godflesh is tasty stuff.

 

[Papa Josh]

That is where you and I differ.

So you take everything but the music into consideration?

 

[J.]

I take everything including the music into consideration.