The Political & Philosophy Thread

Yes, but I don't think that linearity/causality holds up once you introduce urban technologies. The developments and advancements of urban centers feed back into how rural areas produce food.

EDIT: techniques for farming certainly preceded the invention of John Deere tractors, but the invention of the tractor responded to an increasing demand that primitive farming techniques couldn't accommodate.
 
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Wasn't the demand that necessitated the invention of the tractor almost entirely due to urban/suburban population increases?

Seems to me if the rural areas only had to feed themselves they'd have less reason to thank those that aided in technological advances in the first place.
 
Yeah, entirely true, I would have to think.

But you make it sound as though rural farmers weren't complicit in this - that is, like they rolled there eyes and thought "well, the damn cities are getting bigger. Guess we'll have to feed them." No, they were ecstatic (to begin with, anyway) about the booming demand for food in urban centers.

Mainly, I'm just really skeptical of the entire attitude that says farming or other rural jobs are more important because they sustain urban living. Sustenance goes both ways. Increasing urban populations meant more money for farmers, which they wanted; but more money meant more production, so they would have to spend money on more advanced farming technologies, which of course were being developed by scientists and engineers living in urban areas.

The alternative to this process is that everyone goes back to subsistence farming and no one profits from it. Seems like dull and hard work. And I don't want to do it. :D
 
I'm not suggesting they didn't get something out of the advancements, rather I'm just trying to point out the inherently cyclical nature of this particular argument, because I see it pointlessly going down that path pretty quickly. :lol:
 
I agree. Which is why I would like to avoid arguments over which is more important, the farm or the city - or that the city is a "dumbed down" form of living.
 
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The way I see it, if we're talking city v farm in the same country, the farm only really lowers the cost of the products the city needs, but if they had to the city/suburbs with all their wealth (generally speaking) could just buy imported from other countries and totally put the farms in the shit.

The city provides better opportunity to generate money, money that the farmers need unless they merely want to live off the land and not participate in the economy.

Of course once we start talking globally the farm is more important.
 
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/11/21/aftermath-sixteen-writers-on-trumps-america#morrison

(Toni Morrison, Beloved fame)

Unlike any nation in Europe, the United States holds whiteness as the unifying force.

?? :lol:

Surely, shooting a fleeing man in the back hurts the presumption of white strength? The sad plight of grown white men, crouching beneath their (better) selves, to slaughter the innocent during traffic stops, to push black women’s faces into the dirt, to handcuff black children. Only the frightened would do that. Right?

Mind boggling how irresponsible this wording is. Whitey never arrests/exerts unchecked power against whitey because they aren't scared of them?
 
Yes, but I don't think that linearity/causality holds up once you introduce urban technologies. The developments and advancements of urban centers feed back into how rural areas produce food.

EDIT: techniques for farming certainly preceded the invention of John Deere tractors, but the invention of the tractor responded to an increasing demand that primitive farming techniques couldn't accommodate.

I'm not arguing that cities don't produce value, or people in cities can't/don't produce value, or that I personally wish to farm so that's where I place value (I absolutely don't like messing with plants and animals). The social connectivity provided by living closer together at a certain level provides necessary stimulus for the sort of innovation and opportunity for elevating humanity up that hierarchy of needs. HOWEVER:

I agree. Which is why I would like to avoid arguments over which is more important, the farm or the city - or that the city is a "dumbed down" form of living.

I don't think I've made myself clear on the the nature of the "dumbing down". I don't mean a quantifiable reduction in raw intelligence. In fact, probably the opposite occurs if there is any effect. Rather, it's the disconnect from the factors and functions that provide the absolute foundational necessities of life, not to mention the foundational necessities for all the neat things we get via the innovation that occurs in city settings. In short, these things get taken for granted - out of sight, out of mind. We see the same thing to a slightly lesser degree with infrastructure. This is what I mean by a dumbing down. "I don't worry about x,y,z, so that means a,b,c are the real problems, and changes I want to effect a,b,c couldn't possibly affect x,y,z (which isn't even considered in actuality)"

As long as those making the important decisions *do not* take these things for granted, all remains well. Which means taking those decisions out of the hand of the inhabitants of these major urban areas. To be clear, I'm not talking about anyone living in an incorporated city limit. I'm talking about major population centers. What number you used to determine that might be somewhat arbitrary at a point. Maybe 300,000+? Since that wouldn't float in our current political arrangement, the next best thing we have is vote weighting, which is what the Senate and the EC manage to do.
 
I assigned this recent article by John McWhorter to my class for today, published in the Boston Globe last weekend:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2...-use-racism/TzxwI9Fg03ySKGYrCBv9SL/story.html

Excerpt:



In addition to this, I passed around two responses to the piece (both in vehement disagreement with McWhorter), as well as an excerpt from a 2005 article by David Foster Wallace in which Wallace negotiates the distinction between calling someone a "racist" and calling someone "insensitive," and how to potentially communicate such nuances without resorting to accusatory label "racist."

All in all, the class had a very measured and calculated response to McWhorter's article. Most of them said they agreed in part, but also found some aspects of the article troubling, such as McWhorter's apparent neglect for the historical dynamics in which certain racial stereotypes play a part (McWhorter is primarily a linguist, not a historian, so we can forgive his neglect here, I think). At any rate, I think it was a good way to spend a class session, especially in the aftermath of the election and the heated discussions involving how we might recuperate something like an intellectual discourse in the midst of serious ideological divisiveness.

Do you have the links to the criticism pieces?

McWhorter does a fairly good job at elucidating the issue with the current anti-racism narrative. I find that this quote sums it up rather well:
The way we use the word “racism” has become so imprecise, abusive, and even antithetical to genuine activism that change is worth addressing. More to the point, it widens the cultural divide between the elites and the people too often breezily termed the ones “out there.”

Emphasis going to the part where he describes it as 'antithetical'. What he has compared to a 'witch hunt' inherently creates a schism that prevents the proper social discourse of relevant issues while simultaneously devolving into an ad hominem boxing match (where one side ostentatiously claims the moral high ground).

Stuff like this makes discourse almost impossible:
even the subtlest and most unintended of racist bias — or even what certain people insist is racist bias despite objections from reasonable others — is treated as a ghastly moral stain disqualifying a person from civilized society.

Even a non-racist such as myself views this attitude as divisive and counterproductive to achieving a society that allows for racial equality. It also allows for minority populations to victimize themselves to the point of seeing racial inequality in areas where none exist. Stuff like this ironically bolsters the race war and creates things like the reactionary alt-right.

I think McWhorter may have neglected the historical dynamics involved here because it would have muddied his narrative and made his point less concise. He is acknowledging that events of the past have contributed to neighborhood inequalities, and has no obligation to elaborate to cement his point. His solution is not a specific one, but one that lies in the paradigm shift of the approach. Though I dont think I really agree with his rejection of the term 'societal racism' and relabeling it as being part of a viable solution (I think even the term 'racial inequality' would still fuel a similar mindset). The first step to solving our issues lies in having civil discourse, something that is not currently happening.

I agreed with most of what he said up until this, which kind of left me scratching my head:
N OUR MOMENT, my comments will elicit from many the question as to whether I consider Donald Trump a racist. The answer is yes — his feigning lack of familiarity with the opinions of David Duke and his explicit statements about black people’s purported laziness decide the case rather conclusively for me, and I am revolted that he will be our president for this and countless other reasons.

He explicitly mentioned earlier that unintended racial bias could be misconstrued as someone being racist, and yet he is a victim of this same line of thinking here. Refusing to address David Duke's racist opinions is not evidence of racism. His comments about calling black people lazy are contingent on the accuracy of John O'Donnell's book. Even if it was true, this was a quote from 25 years ago. If this is the best evidence he can come up with to accuse someone of being a racist, I am going to accuse him of pandering to the audience that he is trying to convince. Which I guess worked since it convinced Ein to use this in his class ;)
 
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If you're going to be like that, racism plays SOME role in EVERY election. Thanks for the zesty hot opinion there brocakes.

Not every election has detailed poll data illustrating that a specific candidate is clearly preferred by racists, but thanks for the downplay.

Do you have anything against selective blocks on immigration from Muslim countries that disproportionately export terrorists, or parents of terrorists?

Not necessarily. My emphasis was that Trump initially put a racist tone on this proposal, and I don't believe this "lack of finesse" was accidental given his remarkable success employing that trait throughout his campaign.
 
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you frame everything according to a kind of value table
If you find something wrong with that approach, I'd like to know, because it has a big impact on the credibility of your claim that I "rank shots of hormones on a equal footing with the knowledge of the existence of these hormones". A value table shouldn't be too confusing for someone as seemingly rationalistic and deconstructivist as yourself.

We need to make sure ISIS feel equal... Well, we need to make sure the people in the foreign office who allowed certain states to get nuclear weapons are analysed and similar people aren't allowed into such positions again.
I thought we were simply comparing the interests of scientific knowledge and social egalitarianism, not speculating on its effects on foreign policy. You seem to be digressing, or taking an offhand jab of mine too seriously.

Honestly, from personal experience, there are few things more disgusting to me than the left's fear of science.
I don't know what "fear of science" you're familiar with among the UK left, but you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that the American right is more rational to de-prioritize the study of climate change, evolution, and sexuality.
 
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Ok so you value social egalitarianism before "pure" scientific knowledge. I disagree with your priorities, but I think the conflict is context dependent.
 
As long as those making the important decisions *do not* take these things for granted, all remains well. Which means taking those decisions out of the hand of the inhabitants of these major urban areas. To be clear, I'm not talking about anyone living in an incorporated city limit. I'm talking about major population centers. What number you used to determine that might be somewhat arbitrary at a point. Maybe 300,000+? Since that wouldn't float in our current political arrangement, the next best thing we have is vote weighting, which is what the Senate and the EC manage to do.

Thanks for explaining. What kinds of decisions should be taken from urban inhabitants and given over to rural inhabitants?

Do you have the links to the criticism pieces?

They're super short letters to the editor, and basically what you'd expect from people in vehement disagreement with McWhorter:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...us-argument/PCEoxPoi62bbylr6KoLCvN/story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...keenly-felt/3sTWtUT2MOoL9y5elDzwFO/story.html

I think McWhorter may have neglected the historical dynamics involved here because it would have muddied his narrative and made his point less concise. He is acknowledging that events of the past have contributed to neighborhood inequalities, and has no obligation to elaborate to cement his point. His solution is not a specific one, but one that lies in the paradigm shift of the approach. Though I dont think I really agree with his rejection of the term 'societal racism' and relabeling it as being part of a viable solution (I think even the term 'racial inequality' would still fuel a similar mindset). The first step to solving our issues lies in having civil discourse, something that is not currently happening.

I'm also skeptical of "racial inequality," if only because it doesn't strike me as a novel concept by any means. You bring up a good point regarding civil discourse; but then, part of his argument is that we need non-accusatory terminology so as to avoid verbal hostility.

He explicitly mentioned earlier that unintended racial bias could be misconstrued as someone being racist, and yet he is a victim of this same line of thinking here. Refusing to address David Duke's racist opinions is not evidence of racism. His comments about calling black people lazy are contingent on the accuracy of John O'Donnell's book. Even if it was true, this was a quote from 25 years ago. If this is the best evidence he can come up with to accuse someone of being a racist, I am going to accuse him of pandering to the audience that he is trying to convince. Which I guess worked since it convinced Ein to use this in his class ;)

Hardy har har. :cool:

I won't deny that there is probably an element of pandering to this piece so as to protect himself from criticism (which apparently didn't work, judging from the epistolary responses). And I think your point is correct regarding David Duke, if only because of (what I consider to be) the high likelihood that Trump may not have actually known who David Duke was. That being said, the seriously professional and tactful thing to do, once we learn about the potential misunderstandings that result from our ignorance about certain subjects, is to acknowledge those blunders and apologize for them when the evidence is clear that they may constitute a politically insensitive position.

That's my opinion, anyway. Trump is (nearly) constitutively incapable of apologizing, and that's one of his biggest flaws and one of his biggest strengths (depending on whom you ask).

And also, although I know you were being sarcastic - I assigned the essay because I thought it was a compelling argument that I also knew would be controversial.

Ok so you value social egalitarianism before "pure" scientific knowledge. I disagree with your priorities, but I think the conflict is context dependent.

I don't think that liberals have a fear of science. I think many of them probably have a massive misunderstanding of science.
 
Thanks for explaining. What kinds of decisions should be taken from urban inhabitants and given over to rural inhabitants?

Like I said at the outset: Increased boundaries. This is easy at the local level no matter where you look. As we zoom out further, this becomes less clear to those not zoomed out, but then the effects on the ground level start to become lost to those zooming out. It would be nice if there were some sort of system for integrating or informing in both directions but instead we get these really almost haphazard amalgams of differently designed systems that talk and regulate past each other. Increased federalism is a stopgap, as is increased nationalism.

I think western leftism has done an intense amount of damage to the long term possibility of "difference acceptance" by equating disagreement with hate, or attacking "appropriation" etc. This "hypermoral" sort of orientation to what I think are partially genetically bound emergent cultural preferences as well as normal humanistic ways of relation is going to have to be abandoned at some point for a less idealistic and more accepting and open approach to the realities of our both individual and grouped preferences and differences. How is this going to look from oone perspective? Phylistic. How is this going to look to your run of the mill current western intersectional leftist? Probably a_____ -ist. Racist. Sexist. Fill in the blankist.
 
They're super short letters to the editor, and basically what you'd expect from people in vehement disagreement with McWhorter:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...us-argument/PCEoxPoi62bbylr6KoLCvN/story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...keenly-felt/3sTWtUT2MOoL9y5elDzwFO/story.html

Why did you even add these letters for your students to read? Tbh the criticism of the idea that the witch hunt was 'no different' than current racist accusations is a bit justified, but he kind of missed the point (McWhorter was obviously talking about the accusation part, not the punishment associated with it). He then makes this suggestion:
Rather than criticize whites for the “tacky” things they say about blacks, then, activists should get black women “long-acting reversible contraception” and combat black illiteracy and drug use.

Ok, so pointing fingers would be more effective than actually combating some of the problems present in troubled neighborhoods? Has it become so justified that black people can simply play victim to society and not look inwardly at some of the social problems endemic in their own neighborhoods?

The next guy simply talks about what I consider to be discrimination. As a white male, I have faced the same kind of issues depending on my outward appearance. I find that if I am dressed casually with a metal t-shirt, a hoodie, or some other piece of 'commoner' clothing I do not get the same treatment as if I were wearing a suit or other business casual attire. I have been approached for stealing when just putting my hands into the pockets of my hoodie. Everyone discriminates to a certain point based on appearance and body language, and not all of it can be associated with racism. Can it be the case? Sure. But McWhorter wasnt trying to deny the existence of racism, he is just trying to say 'chill the fuck out' to those who constantly want to put any sort of discernment under a racial magnifying glass.

I'm also skeptical of "racial inequality," if only because it doesn't strike me as a novel concept by any means. You bring up a good point regarding civil discourse; but then, part of his argument is that we need non-accusatory terminology so as to avoid verbal hostility.

But the phrase 'racial inequality' is just as damning to the white majority, since it implies that whites have an advantage. It is more or less the same thing. The fact of the matter is that black people are disadvantaged due to inequalities in the past. No matter how you spin it, black people will label white people as the perpetrator. Altering the terminology wont change a damn thing, no matter how novel it might seem.

I would actually like to see some racial statistics that dont take 'bad' neighborhoods into consideration. How big is the epidemic of societal racism in reality, and what part of it can be attributed to aberrant statistics? I realize that there are many black people (among other minority populations) that live in areas that are still feeling the aftershock of the racist policies of old. But this is a separate problem from the one that is being proposed: that black people and other minorities are being denied opportunity and monetary gain.

You would think that as a white male I would be granted with all sorts of advantages to get ahead in life. I was born to a modest working class family where my father was a truck driver and my mother cleans houses. Nobody else in my family has been to college, and thus they are pretty good representation of your average blue collar household. I did not initially get accepted to university and had to work my way up via the community college route (which I proved myself with a 3.8 GPA), eventually getting accepted to the state university. I had to get loans to pay for my education. Life has been tough for me after my father committed suicide 9 years ago due in part to neurological complications attributed to Lyme disease. I have had to work hard to prove myself in every aspect of my life, and never once did I feel like race had any role in my advantages and disadvantages in life. Seeing people make excuses based upon tenuous social constructs makes me dubious, and I am not willing to accept their argument at face value. I have always been told "it isnt about what you know, it is about who you know". Connections I have made have indeed helped me along my way through life, but it was never about race. So why should I believe people who are also struggling that their main barrier to success is their genetic makeup and appearance? Life is hard to everyone who isnt born with connections, money, and opportunities, race be damned.

That's my opinion, anyway. Trump is (nearly) constitutively incapable of apologizing, and that's one of his biggest flaws and one of his biggest strengths (depending on whom you ask).

To me it is both. On one hand it shows that he is trying to be honest with his own self, and that he wont just fold when people disapprove of him (true alpha leader personality). On the other it portrays someone who is full of himself to the point of not being able to recognize his own deficiencies. At the very least I appreciate his confidence, which is a good strength for a democratic leader to have. Imo Trump's biggest flaw at this point is his demagoguery. While I hope that this was just a strategy to win in the election, I do think that he will continue this path throughout his presidency. He has always been somewhat of a scumbag, but it's better than systemic corruption at least.

And also, although I know you were being sarcastic - I assigned the essay because I thought it was a compelling argument that I also knew would be controversial.

Which is why I liked your post. Im glad that you are at least trying to present students with well rounded information instead of just indoctrinating them with leftist horseshit and other self affirming ideologues. What is the name of the course you are teaching?
 
Sorry to hear about your dad. There's no doubt that people beyond minorities have to work hard to get ahead. I think that questions of racial marginality have to be assessed slightly differently, but this shouldn't be at the expense of others.

Why did you even add these letters for your students to read?

Just getting multiple perspectives.

Which is why I liked your post. Im glad that you are at least trying to present students with well rounded information instead of just indoctrinating them with leftist horseshit and other self affirming ideologues. What is the name of the course you are teaching?

It's on postmodern short fiction, but I've tried to incorporate some contemporary stuff into the course, especially since the election. We've read quite a few texts by black authors, so I thought it would be productive to have a session dedicated to the current discourse on race relations.
 
Sorry to hear about your dad. There's no doubt that people beyond minorities have to work hard to get ahead. I think that questions of racial marginality have to be assessed slightly differently, but this shouldn't be at the expense of others.

My point was that a lot of the complaining may just be the flaunting of the race card and a case of the boy who cried wolf. Im not being entirely dismissive of racial discrimination, but I am dubious that it is as systemic in the places it matters that the complainers claim it is. What role the government has in this issue is where I am being most critical. Many people who are not advantaged from birth have a rough life in America, which inevitably most minorities fall into this category. If I had a race or sex card to play I might have done so, which is also a point im trying to make. Im too calloused to be as sympathetic and gullible as your average privileged white guy, as nearly everyone I have met seems to make excuses for their lack of achievement in some area or another. Like I was saying, how bad is racial discrimination really, and how much of it can be attributed to the environment in which people live? This is absolutely a fundamental question to getting to the root of the racial issues in this country, and if we cant answer it, then anything else is inconclusive and reactionary at best.


Just getting multiple perspectives.

I hope that the students who disagreed had better rebuttals than those.

It's on postmodern short fiction, but I've tried to incorporate some contemporary stuff into the course, especially since the election. We've read quite a few texts by black authors, so I thought it would be productive to have a session dedicated to the current discourse on race relations.

I actually wish I took more classes like these when I was an undergrad. I was honestly quite interested in philosophy and literature, but my credits for Phil 101 didnt transfer to uni so I didnt get to indulge in such content as much as I would have wished. I dont even know what postmodern short fiction even is tbh; I was too absorbed in science and math to really appreciate/study literature in a way that I would have liked to (ive always been an avid reader however). I approve of the idea of providing your students with multiple viewpoints, especially in the current student environment. How old are you if you dont mind me asking?
 
http://malcolmpollack.com/2016/11/22/on-the-nature-of-things/

I’ve been reading Richard Weaver’s Ideas Have Consequences.

In summary, the plea that the press, motion picture, and radio justify themselves by keeping people well informed turns out to be misleading. If one thinks merely of facts and of vivid sensations, the claim has some foundation, but if he thinks of encouragement to meditation, the contrary rather is true. For by keeping the time element continuously present—and one may recall Henry James’s description of journalism as criticism of the moment at the moment—they discourage composition and so promote the fragmentation already reviewed. We have seen in other connections how specialization is hostile to all kinds of organization, whether that organization is expressed as image, as whole, or as generalization. In the last analysis this reveals itself as an attempt to prevent the simultaneous perception of successive events, which is the achievement of the philosopher. Materialism and success require the “decomposed eternity” of time for their operation, and this is why we have these hidden but persistent attacks on memory, which holds successive events in a single picture. The successive perception of successive events is empiricism; the simultaneous perception is idealism. Need we go further to account for the current dislike of long memories and for the hatred of the past?

— The man of culture finds the whole past relevant; the bourgeois and the barbarian find relevant only what has some pressing connection with their appetites.

Having been taught for four centuries, more or less, that his redemption lies through the conquest of nature, man expects his heaven to be spatial and temporal, and, beholding all things through the Great Stereopticon, he expects redemption to be easy of attainment. Only by these facts can we explain the spoiled-child psychology of the urban masses. The scientists have given him the impression that there is nothing he cannot know, and false propagandists have told him that there is nothing he cannot have. Since the prime object of the latter is to appease, he has received concessions at enough points to think that he may obtain what he wishes through complaints and demands. This is but another phase of the rule of desire. The spoiled child has not been made to see the relationship between effort and reward. He wants things, but he regards payment as an imposition or as an expression of malice by those who withhold for it. His solution, as we shall see, is to abuse those who do not gratify him.

Based on these selections I need to read the whole thing. This part hits on what a bit of what I mean regarding a dumbing down:

— After man has left the countryside to shut himself up in vast piles of stone, after he has lost what Sir Thomas Browne called pudor rusticus, after he has come to depend on a complicated system of human exchange for his survival, he becomes forgetful of the overriding mystery of creation. Such is the normal condition of the déraciné. An artificial environment causes him to lose sight of the great system not subject to man’s control.