The Political & Philosophy Thread
- Thread starter End of Glory
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Dak
mentat
Just watched Trump introduce Mattis and it's maybe the one instance in which you can see Trump respect someone else on the stage with him that isn't family. Very interesting.
Dak
mentat
Dak
mentat
Einherjar86
Active Member
He's making good points, albeit in a pretty crude and slapdash manner.
I think he's right that all news is persuasion, and I think that Noam Chomsky (among others) would agree. He's also right that it's neither good nor bad, intrinsically anyway; but it isn't meaningless. And Adams seems to be suggesting that fake news and misleading news are qualitatively the same thing. I don't agree with that.
There's a difference between presenting a biased position on a topic by including only certain facts or details and presenting an entirely fictional topic. The former might inflame people's passions about an actual issue, which partake of a real social discourse; the latter, by contrast, might inflame people's passions about an imaginary issue, creating a discourse that distracts from pertinent matters.
That's my take, anyway.
I think he's right that all news is persuasion, and I think that Noam Chomsky (among others) would agree. He's also right that it's neither good nor bad, intrinsically anyway; but it isn't meaningless. And Adams seems to be suggesting that fake news and misleading news are qualitatively the same thing. I don't agree with that.
There's a difference between presenting a biased position on a topic by including only certain facts or details and presenting an entirely fictional topic. The former might inflame people's passions about an actual issue, which partake of a real social discourse; the latter, by contrast, might inflame people's passions about an imaginary issue, creating a discourse that distracts from pertinent matters.
That's my take, anyway.
Dak
mentat
I understand that perspective, but I see little difference. They are both diversionary. There's an argument to be made that misleading news is worse. It brings to mind the (variously phrased) old adage that "the most dangerous lie is the one closest to the truth." When Trump says blatantly false things that can be debunked in about 30 seconds on Google, that seems much more harmless than an "objective" NYT article.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Yeah, I can see it either way. But it doesn't seem to matter that a comment by Trump can be debunked in thirty seconds on Google, since his supporters believe him anyway. So then it becomes a matter not of the story's veracity, but of the willingness of a consuming public to believe it. And in that case, it strikes me that someone spreading false news - especially the kind that will appeal to half the country - is doing more harm than someone spreading slanted perspectives on real topics.
The people who believe false news stories will inevitably end up ignoring more pressing concerns, even if they are depicted in a biased manner in the New York Times.
The people who believe false news stories will inevitably end up ignoring more pressing concerns, even if they are depicted in a biased manner in the New York Times.
Dak
mentat
Einherjar86
Active Member
Your point is well-taken, except that I know you believe there are pressing concerns that we can assess in a pragmatic, and not merely subjective, fashion.
Dak
mentat
Well pragmatism and subjectivity aren't mutually exclusive, it is idealism and pragmatism which appear exclusive. I've become much less idealistic. For example: I don't like Mattis' position on Iran (because Iran isn't a threat to the US), but at this point it's much more in the US interest (and therefore my interest in general terms) to take a hard stance there and staunch the constant flow of fail everywhere else as it relates to the military.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Exactly. Then there are "pressing" concerns that we can assess pragmatically and not merely subjectively.
Dak
mentat
Really? Some people think Mattis' positions are ruining all the progress of the Obama administration because it will motivate Iran towards nuclear weapons, and because they aren't white they will probs use them, and we will all die because MAD. That's a subjective reality. Alternatively, another subjective position is that the US military is more awesome than ever because transgenders are obviously the most badass warfighters possible and now we can openly produce them. Mattis may threaten this awesomeness.
Einherjar86
Active Member
You just admitted that pragmatism and subjectivity aren't mutually exclusive. Scientific procedures allow us to discern issues that concern us, and I for one think we can grant such issues a little more gravity than, for instance, a made-up story about a child sex-slave ring going on in the basement of a pizza joint.
Dak
mentat
So there it is. I hadn't even heard about it until "real news" talked about it, and I know quite a few deplorables. Might actually be a better evidence of misleading news.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Einherjar86
Active Member
no country for old wainds
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