The Political & Philosophy Thread

[CiG]

No need for tunnels anyway, your illegal immigration policies don't really work. To make Obama's deportation numbers look good compared to previous administrations they redefined being turned away at the border as a deportation.

 

[J.]

The US has enough poor, broken, dysfunctional people without importing more of them with significant culture/language dissimilarities thrown in for good measure (at the moment I'll exclude Jordan, but reports that come to my attention suggest that that eye in the storm is slowly being dragged down with the rest). It's akin to the absurdity of handing out foreign aid when A. the US has a budget deficit and B. Citizens in poverty etc. (nevermind that foreign aid doesn't generally get to the poor anyway). Potentially hampering terrorist infiltrators is a bonus afaiac.

This. Exactly. Instead of trying to pull on my heart strings for some family across the world, how bout we focus on the poor, disenfranchised people in the US? Other than the bullshit "its the humane thing to do", what is the real reason?

The folks screaming to let these refugees in, should open their homes to them, let them eat your food, provide for them, instead of using my tax dollars.

 

[Dak]

I hope they enjoy the price hike in the grocery store.

So wage increases will manifest in price increases? Amazing how well liberals suddenly understand economics! It's a Trumpian miracle! The #winning never stops!

The worse the Mexican economy does, the more illegal immigration we will see.

Not if they can't get shit here either.

 

[J.]

Trump's ban of certain Muslim countries is illegal and likely to get knocked down by the courts for violating the 1965 Immigration Act. If he want's to do this, he has to go through congress and pass new legislation that overturns the 1965 Immigration Act.

Good for us, Republicans hold the Senate and House.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Except the fact they broke the law by coming here illegally....???

Why does no one care about this? The USA is not a free-for-all for illegal peoples to just come here.

It's realism. The Immigration laws haven't been updated in forever and are obsolete. They are not designed to respond to the demand we have for farming, other manual labor, and low-skill labor in regions of this country. Immigrants wouldn't be coming here if the jobs weren't here. If we had an Immigration system that responded to the needs of our economy, then we wouldn't have nearly as much of an illegal immigration problem.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

So wage increases will manifest in price increases? Amazing how well liberals suddenly understand economics! It's a Trumpian miracle! The #winning never stops!

Where did wage increases come in? I'm talking about the 20% tariff on imported Mexican goods the Trump admin is talking about.

Not if they can't get shit here either.

But they can.

 

[CiG]

Don't you guys have a relatively high unemployment rate among the native citizens? Surely they could do the work.

 

[J.]

The left's argument there is "mexicans do jobs americans dont want to do".

The real answer is "mexicans work cheaper than americans"

 

[J.]

It's realism. The Immigration laws haven't been updated in forever and are obsolete. They are not designed to respond to the demand we have for farming, other manual labor, and low-skill labor in regions of this country. Immigrants wouldn't be coming here if the jobs weren't here. If we had an Immigration system that responded to the needs of our economy, then we wouldn't have nearly as much of an illegal immigration problem.

And here we have a Prez trying to update and enforce immigration law, and everyone suddenly turns into Mother Theresa

The answer is to hire Americans or LEGAL immigrants, raise the wage, and punish employers that hire illegal immigrants.

 

[Dak]

Where did wage increases come in? I'm talking about the 20% tariff on imported Mexican goods the Trump admin is talking about.

Good thing I don't tend to eat avocado and I'm not in the market for a car or car parts. I mistakenly assumed you were staying with the prior discussion on Mexican immigration (legal and illegal) impact on the economy. Cheap foreign labor depresses wages which does have some effect on keeping food prices lower (since farmers a major users of immigrant labor).

But they can.

They can, but it's becoming increasingly more difficult (which has influenced that net outflow that is suddenly mentioned in every immigration article), and I hope this continues.

Don't you guys have a relatively high unemployment rate among the native citizens? Surely they could do the work.

Well the "unemployment rate" is low, but the labor force participation rate is also low.

 

[Einherjar86]

I believe by immigration laws he meant combating illegal immigration, no? Not solely the process of entering legally.

Ah, okay. I read that as which immigration laws we choose to enforce.

Personally I don't want people from Arab countries even if they would honestly disavow Islamic extremism. The US has enough poor, broken, dysfunctional people without importing more of them with significant culture/language dissimilarities thrown in for good measure (at the moment I'll exclude Jordan, but reports that come to my attention suggest that that eye in the storm is slowly being dragged down with the rest). It's akin to the absurdity of handing out foreign aid when A. the US has a budget deficit and B. Citizens in poverty etc. (nevermind that foreign aid doesn't generally get to the poor anyway). Potentially hampering terrorist infiltrators is a bonus afaiac.

The immigrants coming into this country live in far more poverty and in more direct danger of violent, authoritarian oppression than do U.S. citizens.

afaiac, if it helps immigrants more than it hurts good ol' homegrown amurkins, then I think the ethical imperative lies with trying to help immigrants.

The left's argument there is "mexicans do jobs americans dont want to do".

The real answer is "mexicans work cheaper than americans"

Whose fault is that? Not illegal immigrants, but employers who choose to employ them.

They sacrifice a ton to risk coming here and working.

Finally, it strikes me as somewhat hypocritical to alleviate unemployed whites of the responsibility for being unemployed and turning to black markets for meth and oxycodone when we demonize blacks who are unable to get work for turning to gang culture.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

And here we have a Prez trying to update and enforce immigration law, and everyone suddenly turns into Mother Theresa

The answer is to hire Americans or LEGAL immigrants, raise the wage, and punish employers that hire illegal immigrants.

He's trying to update it in ways that go against the basic principles of democracy and our constitution. As I said before, the immigration system is obsolete, so the appeal to LEGAL immigrants, caps and all, falls empty. The LEGAL supply doesn't meet the demand. Hence, illegal immigration.

As for raising the minimum wage, you really believe a Republican congress with the CEO of Hardees as the Secretary of Labor is gonna increase wages? Maybe you'll see it raise a $1- $1.50 if you're lucky. More likely, it won't increase at all. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/us/politics/andrew-puzder-labor-secretary-trump.html

In an appearance on Fox Business in May, he said that he was “not opposed to raising the minimum wage rationally; I’m opposed to raising it to the point where lower-skilled workers, working-class Americans, young people, minorities, are losing the jobs they need to get on the ladder of success.”

Though he did not explain what a “rational” increase would entail, he opposed the Obama administration’s efforts to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 from $7.25, where it has stood since 2009. That is far below the $15 per hour that many advocates have called for and that a variety of cities and states have enacted in recent years, albeit on a gradual timetable.

Economic research suggests that an increase to the vicinity of $10.10 per hour would have little or no effect on employment in much of the country, though the impact could be larger in low-wage, low-cost areas. Mr. Puzder has raised concerns about the effects in those regions.

 

[arg]

here we go again, sane UMers vs ein and floyd, lovers of illegals and muslims. ha ha ha

 

[Einherjar86]

You may as well not participate, since nothing you say corresponds to any consistent reality anyway.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Good for us, Republicans hold the Senate and House.

Democrats have the filibuster in the Senate. Unless the Republicans can get eight democrats to flip on an issue, the democrats can still block a vote.

 

[J.]

Democrats have the filibuster in the Senate. Unless the Republicans can get eight democrats to flip on an issue, the democrats can still block a vote.

The Nuclear Option kills the filibuster.

 

[arg]

1) Implement e-verify so that businesses can only hire citizens and legals. If violated, fine heavily or shut down.

2) Get rid of minimum wage so businesses can pay workers whatever they want.

3) Massive welfare cut so bums are forced to do those shitty jobs or die.

BOOM huge problems solved. Illegal immigration, small business support, unemployment, labor demand, welfare spending. Can you see how perfect that 3-pronged attack is? I'm an economic genius

 

[crimsonfloyd]

The Nuclear Option kills the filibuster.

Thus far, everything I've heard from McConnell implies he won't use the nuclear option, or at the very least, will only use it with extreme reluctance. On the other hand, everything I have heard from the Democratic caucus implies they will use filibuster.

 

[CiG]

Finally, it strikes me as somewhat hypocritical to alleviate unemployed whites of the responsibility for being unemployed and turning to black markets for meth and oxycodone when we demonize blacks who are unable to get work for turning to gang culture.

Is this really true? If it is, it's worth mentioning that an out of work drug addict is much less harmful than an out of work gangster. Just ask a parent who has a dead child due to stray bullets etc.

afaiac, if it helps immigrants more than it hurts good ol' homegrown amurkins, then I think the ethical imperative lies with trying to help immigrants

Curious as to how one would figure out the helpful to immigrants vs hurtful to Americans comparison.

As for raising the minimum wage

I thought he meant, raise the wage naturally by removing the option to hire illegal immigrant workers.

 

[Dak]

The immigrants coming into this country live in far more poverty and in more direct danger of violent, authoritarian oppression than do U.S. citizens.

afaiac, if it helps immigrants more than it hurts good ol' homegrown amurkins, then I think the ethical imperative lies with trying to help immigrants.

I recently had a different discussion with others in talking about how an apparent difference in liberal vs conservative morality is how conservatives understand and follow concentric circles of relation and obligation. Conversely, liberals selectively choose to disregard these until forced to acknowledge the practical absurdity of disregarding them.

After I survey and emotionally engage in the plights of those close and closer to me, I more or less run out of fucks to give for people on the other side of the world. Let those closest to them help them, we have our own problems.

Finally, it strikes me as somewhat hypocritical to alleviate unemployed whites of the responsibility for being unemployed and turning to black markets for meth and oxycodone when we demonize blacks who are unable to get work for turning to gang culture.

Would you rather live next to a heroin addict or gang HQ? (Edit, beat to it by CIG)

Ironically, low SES Americans (which includes blacks significantly, something the left loves to mention as an example systemic racism) are the ones most harmed by unskilled cheap foreign labor. If liberals were indeed concerned about improving job prospects of blacks etc then they would be against immigration.