This HAS to be a joke

[Ultimate_Symphony]

I read the whole thread and there's no need to respond to any posts, Dreamlord pretty much covered all the points on this discussion \m/

 

[J.]

Actually, the infer seems to be that you can be a complete dick 100% of the time and simply "believe" and it'll all work out, but it's not that simple.

Of course it's not that simple. I never said it was. I could have dug much, much deeper, but like I said, I didn't want to delve into being too preachy.

The fact is, you take the type of person who jumps in and out of belief in God, the person who has never been extremely moved and become a completely better person due to that faith, - that person has never truly had the faith.

I agree. Going to church every Sunday, tithing a percentage of your pay, and helping feed the homeless are all well and good, but without that specific solid belief, ultimately, it is all for naught.

If a person truly accepts the truth of Christ he is changed for the better - forever.

Exactly. Most true Christians are moral people with upstanding values. So you will probably never find a person who is a true Christian, yet treats everyone like shit 100% of the time.

However, a person can be a total asshole for so many years, and eventually become a Christian, and have an entirely new outlook on life.

 

[J.]

Just out of interest, Dreamlord - would you consider yourself a Christian? If not, do you believe in a God? I'm honestly not needling at this point, I'm genuinely curious. You seem to have a significant knowledge of Christianity (easily more so than me - my studies have mainly been spent on Satanism and Wicca, due to my interest in "alternative" religions").

Yes, I am. I've read many books (fiction and non-fiction) on Christianity, including much of the Bible. I've taken some classes in college based on the Bible, and have been asked by two ministers if I was interested in pursuing a position within the church.

After all my studies (and I'm still doing research, just not to the extent as I used to), I have more questions now than I did when I first began.

 

[Fourka]

I pretty much read all posts here.

It seems as if I am a "bastard human being"...that is because I discriminate people by their beliefs. I kinda tend to have the ability of getting in someone's brain. It all starts from the psychological thing of somebody. I can say that people that believe to a god (whatever god that is...christianity, satanism etc)...is fooling him/herself that life has a specific meaning. I think that this comes from human's fears. The thought that we were just summoned in the earth just like that and that we will dissapear forever in a couple of half-centuries, is very bad. The fear of total nothing. This feeling is so bad that makes the human brain to act somehow to fight this feeling, this fear. They think that everything is getting better and has more sense when somebody else (something else) exist that contols us. I can say that christian people are believing to god because of their fears. They have never seen anything that implies that god exist. They just follow what their instict sais, which of course is the same for all human beings: live better with the thought that there is a meaning to all of this and by believing to this "god" you will not end up in hell.

On the other hand, people that don't believe in christianity but they believe in other religions also have the fear of "nothing" in their lives.

Each person's god is his/her brain. Only I can make a god, only I can control me, only I can live my soul to something that I have never seen,...it is all due to human's fears. Human's brain can work in a way that only you can control even without noticing. [MY OPNINION]

So, I say that I discriminate between people that are religious or not, then I discriminate between people that have different religious beliefs, then I discriminate between people that have different reasons for believing or "believing" to a religion.

I just cannot argue for the matter:"Does god exist? Does heaven and hell exist? etc"

Only I can say that people start everything and as my signature says it needs guts to wake up from the illusion we are living at. The illusion is that there is a fucking meaning to the human life. My opinion is that it is just an illusion. And of course, only your brain can get away from this illusion. Only you have the power...and as I can see from many people you really have to have guts for this.

Anyway, I hope you understood me , cause I am not so good with my english.

And finally, to those that will say that I am wrong to discriminate, well yes I discriminate and I don't think that is wrong. This is the way I live. Just trying to figure out how human's brain work. At the end of the day I have become a misanthropist. And to your knowledge, it is not my fault.

Don't seek argue though with you, just telling my opinion.

 

[J.]

I can say that people that believe to a god (whatever god that is...christianity, satanism etc)...is fooling him/herself that life has a specific meaning. I think that this comes from human's fears. The thought that we were just summoned in the earth just like that and that we will dissapear forever in a couple of half-centuries, is very bad. The fear of total nothing. This feeling is so bad that makes the human brain to act somehow to fight this feeling, this fear. They think that everything is getting better and has more sense when somebody else (something else) exist that contols us. I can say that christian people are believing to god because of their fears. They have never seen anything that implies that god exist. They just follow what their instict sais, which of course is the same for all human beings: live better with the thought that there is a meaning to all of this and by believing to this "god" you will not end up in hell.

Hi Fourka

I'm not so sure you are correct here. This all comes back to the point that Orion Crystal Ice made. If you truly have that belief in God/Jesus, there is nothing to fear. Fears fade away. On the other hand, for the people that wear Christianity as a badge of honor or a fashion statement, they fear much, because they are fence sitting. They can't decide if they should fully submit to Christianity or if they should just go on with there lives and forget about it completely. Instead, they fool themselves into thinking they are Christians so they can sleep at night.

As far as human beings needing a meaning to their lives, I don't know. I'm sure it helps some people get through the day believing their is a God and someone watching over them. I fail to see how that is a bad thing if it makes their life more bearable and easy going.

 

[Fourka]

Hi Fourka

I'm not so sure you are correct here. This all comes back to the point that Orion Crystal Ice made. If you truly have that belief in God/Jesus, there is nothing to fear. Fears fade away. On the other hand, for the people that wear Christianity as a badge of honor or a fashion statement, they fear much, because they are fence sitting. They can't decide if they should fully submit to Christianity or if they should just go on with there lives and forget about it completely. Instead, they fool themselves into thinking they are Christians so they can sleep at night.

Yes, I agree that the ones that believe in christianity without knowing why are really in fear. These are the fool ones. On the other hand, what you said about no fear when you truly believe in god, I can say that I have heard that, from some people who actually knew many things about it and I surely cannot say that they are fools. However, my mind cannot get clearer with that again...cause if I ask you the question: Why do you need to believe in God/Jesus in order not to have any fears? What would you answer me? Is this belief essential? Can't you manage to be without fear by yourself? Maybe I am wrong with the following, but it comes in mind as it is a kind of drug. For, example I have heard from many people that cocaine will get you high and happy etc...yes, I agree with that. But, wouldn't it be better if you were happy without any help that at the end of the day you don't know where this will result? I mean are you sure that there is life after death and that this life will be either with god either with...hell? Cause if you know that for sure, then ok..I shut up. But, why use something that makes you want to die in order to find the truth...? The truth may be really bad! you may not even notice it (probably that in my opinion)...What I am trying to say is that I don't need any religious beliefs, as I don't need any drugs.

As far as human beings needing a meaning to their lives, I don't know. I'm sure it helps some people get through the day believing their is a God and someone watching over them. I fail to see how that is a bad thing if it makes their life more bearable and easy going.

So, I said all these stuff just now, to tell you that I don't say that you shouldn't believe to god because I tell you so. Each person has each own beliefs and ideas about anything. The only thing that all of these things are meaning to me is that I can see the other person's personality, character, brain, power, culture etc. It is ok if my grandma for example wants to think like that because it makes her life more bearable and easy going, but as a "little fucking bastard" I am as I said before.. :Smug: I just cannot have the best opinion about my grandma's inner personality. Not as a grandma but as a person.

Fuck me....I am really narrow minded, am I? every time before I press the button to post my reply and I read what I have written, I feel very strange... ...but that is the truth about me...so lets just post it!

 

[veil the sky]

aah sweet!

there's one issue that i would like to respond to in this thread. (the most open minded and genuinely intellectual thread on religion i have EVER read through on UM. so thank you )

i would like to respond to the common retort against the religious believer that there is no evidence for the existence of god. this is a mistake.

all of our observations are theory laden, at least the way in which we recount and communicate them. and observations are entirely trivial without explaination, which is necessary to turn empirical experiences into meaningful cognition.

for the religious believer, the evidence for the existence of god is everywhere and everything. just as the evidence for the quality of the music we listen to is in our listening to it!

the non-believers say that there is no evidence for god's existence, because their understanding and interpretation of their experiences does not involve any reference to a deity. but for the religious believer, it does. the christian believes that god is the 'creator of all things', so they see evidence of god's existence everywhere around them.

it's worth bearing in mind that this argument against the value of religious belief is going to sound pretty empty to a christian. you are arguing from an exclusively atheist position which they will have no reason to adopt.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

aah sweet!

there's one issue that i would like to respond to in this thread. (the most open minded and genuinely intellectual thread on religion i have EVER read through on UM. so thank you )

i would like to respond to the common retort against the religious believer that there is no evidence for the existence of god. this is a mistake.

all of our observations are theory laden, at least the way in which we recount and communicate them. and observations are entirely trivial without explaination, which is necessary to turn empirical experiences into meaningful cognition.

for the religious believer, the evidence for the existence of god is everywhere and everything. just as the evidence for the quality of the music we listen to is in our listening to it!

the non-believers say that there is no evidence for god's existence, because their understanding and interpretation of their experiences does not involve any reference to a deity. but for the religious believer, it does. the christian believes that god is the 'creator of all things', so they see evidence of god's existence everywhere around them.

it's worth bearing in mind that this argument against the value of religious belief is going to sound pretty empty to a christian. you are arguing from an exclusively atheist position which they will have no reason to adopt.

So true, but at least we (I know I am) are talking from a human logic standpoint. From a religious standpoint, the evidence is all the creation, but they can't actually prove (to ''us'') what they believe. If you find a watch on the street and it doesn't say who actually made it, you couldn't possibly say who created it, but religious people believe a god created this world because it's common sense that a more powerful being created this big and complex environment. It's common for us (humans) to use supernatural explanations for things we don't actually ''know''. Non-believers try to explain things with their own logic, in order to believe in a god they need to see him or talk to him. But anyway, whenever an atheist and a christian start an argument, you can be sure that the argument will last for days without ending on a certain ''conclusion''. No matter what you do, you can't explain some things and religion is one of them. It's all up to you, the only conclusion you can make is to believe or to not believe in a god or religion.

I hope I made some sense

 

[Wanderingblade]

Just to throw oil on the fire, apperantly a group of scientists have been using highly advanced cameras to photograph human bodies as they die. Apperantly (this is all highly apperant. I've lost the link, can't remember it that well and never saw confirmation of this elsewhere... tho the site was definitley scientific) from the pictures they've taken, they reckon to have fairly definite proof that there is in fact an afterlife...

 

[J.]

If you find that link, please let me know.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Just to throw oil on the fire, apperantly a group of scientists have been using highly advanced cameras to photograph human bodies as they die. Apperantly (this is all highly apperant. I've lost the link, can't remember it that well and never saw confirmation of this elsewhere... tho the site was definitley scientific) from the pictures they've taken, they reckon to have fairly definite proof that there is in fact an afterlife...

I get the feeling that this thread will get pretty big soon. How are they supposed to know there's an afterlife with cameras? do you remember if they did some kind of explanation?

 

[dill_the_devil]

I hope this thread does get bigger - as Veil The Sky pointed out (sorta), it's rare to see a debate on a topic this serious on Ultimate Metal without it turning into a huge flame war. I've just read back through it, and am fairly surprised that my contributions made sense - I'd just chugged four cans of Scrumpy Jack and was fairly merry... hehehe...

I'll probably sit back and watch from this point, as to some extent I agree with everyone on this thread so far whilst retaining my own view. Basically meaning I have nothing more to add!

 

[Fourka]

So true, but at least we (I know I am) are talking from a human logic standpoint. From a religious standpoint, the evidence is all the creation, but they can't actually prove (to ''us'') what they beleive. If you find a watch on the street and it doesn't say who actually made it, you couldn't possibly say who created it, but religious people beleive a god created this world because it's common sense that a more powerful being created this big and complex environment. It's common for us (humans) to use supernatural explanations for things we don't actually ''know''. Non-beleivers try to explain things with their own logic, in order to beleive in a god they need to see him or talk to him. But anyway, whenever an atheist and a christian start an argument, you can be sure that the argument will last for days without ending on a certain ''conclusion''. No matter what you do, you can't explain some things and religion is one of them. It's all up to you, the only conclusion you can make is to beleive or to not beleive in a god or religion.

I hope I made some sense

same and I really expect this thread to get bigger...heh

 

[Fourka]

Just to throw oil on the fire, apperantly a group of scientists have been using highly advanced cameras to photograph human bodies as they die. Apperantly (this is all highly apperant. I've lost the link, can't remember it that well and never saw confirmation of this elsewhere... tho the site was definitley scientific) from the pictures they've taken, they reckon to have fairly definite proof that there is in fact an afterlife...

if you remember the link in the future then you know what to do

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

I hope this thread does get bigger - as Veil The Sky pointed out (sorta), it's rare to see a debate on a topic this serious on Ultimate Metal without it turning into a huge flame war. I've just read back through it, and am fairly surprised that my contributions made sense - I'd just chugged four cans of Scrumpy Jack and was fairly merry... hehehe...

I'll probably sit back and watch from this point, as to some extent I agree with everyone on this thread so far whilst retaining my own view. Basically meaning I have nothing more to add!

I agree, surprisingly we haven't insulted each other in the process It's funny because this is my first post on a religion related thread and i'm doing pretty good so far I used to read the religious threads on the Opeth board and man what a battlefield that place is.

 

[J.]

I agree, surprisingly we haven't insulted each other in the process It's funny because this is my first post on a religion related thread and i'm doing pretty good so far I used to read the religious threads on the Opeth board and man what a battlefield that place is.

That's because whenever a religious thread is started in the Opeth Chat/ Off topic forum, everyone immediately reverts to acting like children by calling all the Christians "brainwashed", "fools", "fundies", "Bible-kissers" and any other asinine name they come up with. In the process those name callers lose any credibility they had by dodging the subject, and instead concentrating on insults. Not to mention they say the same thing in every post, and end up forcing down your throat.

Hmm, isn't that what Christians are accused of? How ironic....

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

That's because whenever a religious thread is started in the Opeth Chat/ Off topic forum, everyone immediately reverts to acting like children by calling all the Christians "brainwashed", "fools", "fundies", "Bible-kissers" and any other asinine name they come up with. In the process those name callers lose any credibility they had by dodging the subject, and instead concentrating on insults. Not to mention they say the same thing in every post, and end up forcing down your throat.

Hmm, isn't that what Christians are accused of? How ironic....

Right on the nail \m/ Dill also made a very good point, people tend to blame religions for causing trouble and deaths and they tend to miss out the fact that religions are not the problem, humankind's nature is the problem. People twist the purpose of religion and use it as a weapon against others. I've never been a big religion guy, but I got to give credit where it's due. Honestly, I don't even know what I beleive in, but only time will tell.

 

[speed]

As for Religion- I was in Italy and visited the tomb of Francis of Assisi- a saint who embraced self denial- gave all his money to the poor- the man embraced the suffering of christianity- and cast away the sin of the world- yet lo and behold when one enters his tomb at the bottom of the magnificient cathedral- one finds two tables with Franciscan monks taking and accepting donations- only have a credit card- well they have a machine that accepts credit cards- and yes they do take checks. The polish group around me, swarmed about these moneychangers as if their eternal soul depended upon it. And, in the process one can hear Francis of Assisi turning over in his grave.

Dill- I think Nationalism and Patriotism have killed more people than all the other human caused deaths combined- yet Religion has always been a strong influence on Nationalism and Patriotism- it seems they go hand and hand. This seems like an appropriate post- due to the nature of the world at the present moment- ah those damn Hegelians.

 

[veil the sky]

That's because whenever a religious thread is started in the Opeth Chat/ Off topic forum, everyone immediately reverts to acting like children by calling all the Christians "brainwashed", "fools", "fundies", "Bible-kissers" and any other asinine name they come up with. In the process those name callers lose any credibility they had by dodging the subject, and instead concentrating on insults. Not to mention they say the same thing in every post, and end up forcing down your throat.

Hmm, isn't that what Christians are accused of? How ironic....

well i must say i'd never noticed that

it's like stepping into the evangelical church of atheism.....

 

[Tebus]

I'm not so sure you are correct here. This all comes back to the point that Orion Crystal Ice made. If you truly have that belief in God/Jesus, there is nothing to fear. Fears fade away. On the other hand, for the people that wear Christianity as a badge of honor or a fashion statement, they fear much, because they are fence sitting. They can't decide if they should fully submit to Christianity or if they should just go on with there lives and forget about it completely. Instead, they fool themselves into thinking they are Christians so they can sleep at night.

As far as human beings needing a meaning to their lives, I don't know. I'm sure it helps some people get through the day believing their is a God and someone watching over them. I fail to see how that is a bad thing if it makes their life more bearable and easy going.

Those are some great points you made there. For me, Christianity has been having faith in Jesus' and God's messages. The passages I've read of the Bible so far have really given a lot of insight to me in reference to what a good way to go about life is and what the problems with the world are. Basically, I read the Bible for inspirational purposes, much the same reason I listen to and play metal. It's not a matter of I need Christianity because I think life is pointless without going to heaven afterwards. Regardless of what is at the end of the tunnel, I still have faith in the moral messages in the Bible. But I certainly don't do anything out of fear of punishment in the end.

But it's unfortunate that there are many Christians that blindly follow the faith without questioning it or thinking about what it all means. They seem to just believe what they are told is the right thing to believe, and that is what causes many of the problems.