This is absolutely disgusting. These people deserve to
- Thread starter Mort Divine
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oki doki smoki
edit: anyway, i was pointing out the fact that you generalised that statement to cover more than just a few incidents..
edit2: its grammatically correct, sir administrator sir.
edit: anyway, i was pointing out the fact that you generalised that statement to cover more than just a few incidents..
edit2: its grammatically correct, sir administrator sir.
the punishment should still fit the crime
for "honor killings" the violators should be sentenced for life in prison without parole, but then again when you live in a barbaric and despicable culture like this, people can kill innocent people and only go to jail for 6 months
uke: uke:
ThisIsACoolName
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skeptik
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If more than one Christian has stoned a family member to death, than the statement "Christians stone their family members to death" is a true statement. And more than one has done this. This is just one incident that I quoted. It's not a generalization, because it's true. I didn't say all Christians stone their family members to death.
the punishment should still fit the crime
for "honor killings" the violators should be sentenced for life in prison without parole, but then again when you live in a barbaric and despicable culture like this, people can kill innocent people and only go to jail for 6 months
First of all, why should the punishment fit the crime? Is it going to undo what the person did? All it's going to do is make the same crime happen twice. The punishment should keep the person from doing what he did again.
ThisIsACoolName
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Krigloch the Furious
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if you kill/rape someone you should die for commiting such a crime.
the criminal/s are worthless pieces of shit and dont deserve life.
fuck rehabilitating them, fuck keeping them in a box.
hang them, shoot them, stick a needle in them, electrocute them...
the criminal/s are worthless pieces of shit and dont deserve life.
fuck rehabilitating them, fuck keeping them in a box.
hang them, shoot them, stick a needle in them, electrocute them...
It's 2007 and the new millenium and it's no longer eye for an eye and rapists and murderers should get a starbucks in their cell.
ah, maybe to deter them from doing it in the future? May not deter all but if it deters at least one then maybe one innocent life could be saved. Six months in jail sure the hell won't deter anyone. They can impose the death penalty on their relatives for such stupid reasons why not impose the death penalty on them? After all isn't it their CULTURE to impose the death penalty for such crimes as rape, murder, drug smuggling etc. And such methods they impose to execute the sentence are Stoning, beheading etc. By only giving them 6 months you are essentially sanctioning what they did.
I'll quote another part of the link you gave me: "Faten Habash's murder was unusual because she came from the Christian minority in the Palestinian territories."
Considering that this whole thread is about a incident of a so called "honor" killing I would say your statement was addressing that. If not then what were you addressing? Eye 4 Eye is antiquated and barbaric and not acceptable in Western civiliziation but it is sort of part of their culture in the Middle East. And their's is not a civilized society as is seen everyday on TV and do not deserve any less. In keeping with their culture if they kill they should be killed in the same manner (remember one of their methods of execution for other crimes is stoning).
On another note why not "honor" killing of men who put shame on their family huh? If it happens it is very rare but it should be more prevalent if this really is about the "shame" put upon a family. If a man is not "honored" killed then the shame is still there no?. This practice isn't about "honor" or "shame" on the family. This is about their control & humiliation of women in their male dominated society.
skeptik
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Clearly you've done no research on capital punishment. It's been generally found across the board that the death penalty is NOT an effective means of deterrence. Why does nobody look things up before they open their mouths? And you speak of "if the death penalty can spare one innocent life," but the death penalty has been the cause of HUNDREDS of innocent deaths, and thousands more have been found to be innocent while on death row. So there's a gaping hole in your argument. And don't shit on a culture that promotes murder if you want to sanction murder in order to punish them. I don't think you even realize how backwards your reasoning is. "DER IT'S DER CULTURE SO WE SHOULD HANG THEM BECAUSE IT'S DER CULTURE." We're looking to CHANGE the culture, not perpetuate it.
I never said Christian honor killings were as common, but then again Christians in general are not as common in the region, so it's common sense. And once again if you would do some independent research on your own you can find other accounts of Christian honor killings. It happens here in America all the time, but in a different sense, with the Christian right condemning stem cell research and STD vaccinations again HPV and other diseases that could save lives.
This is a ridiculously flawed statement. Do you mean to propose that I was speaking about this case in particular merely because the words that I typed were in a thread whose original post was regarding this incident? Are you saying that it's physically possible to post something in a thread that is not about the original topic? What a stupid thing to say.
Criminal activity and retainment in general?
Why would you even use this argument when you're condemning their actions? Are you trying to say that I support honor killing? If not, then your saying this is completely meaningless. We don't WANT to keep their culture, and neither does the majority over there. Those who engage in honor killings are on the extreme ends of society, but this point doesn't seem to register in your head.
No shit?
It's not a deterrent in Western Society. You are thinking as a Westerner. As for innocent people getting executed. Again you are thinking as a Westerner. It is obvious when these people do honor killings they are not ashamed of admitting so there is no innocence or proclamation of. So therefor there is no gaping hole in my argument. You are thinking like a Westerner.So if they do not have shame in admitting a honor killing there is no chance of someone innocent being put to death for such a crime. And in theory can save a life or two from honor killing because of the consequences. My thinking is not backwards because I have come to the reservation that they will never change and we are not trying to change their culture because they will never change and if they ever did it would take hundreds of years to do so like it took the Christians. Anyways we are not trying to change them because it's a lost cause but you are. Do not confuse you with we.
If it's a cultural thing then it's not a Christian honor killing as you just said. But I'll make you happy and say it's a Arab thing and most Arabs in the Middle East live in the dark ages in their thinking. It is not any one religious faith.
Now that is really a stupid statement because that is in no way the same or related to Honor Killings in the Middle East.
Stupid how? You did not say criminal activity in general. So next time be more clear about it and people won't think you mean about the main topic of the thread.And please don't disrespect me because I never done so to you in the past. Have always respected (though not always agree) with your opinions and I expect the same. In other words do not be like other idiots in this forum. Be above them.
Look above.
There you go again with that WE thing. Please fix that and say that you and not WE.It is not Western civiliazation there so we cannot change their culture only they can themselves. And like I stated already that will take probably hundreds years of unthinking to do that and generations to die out who still think that way. The Majority there do want to keep their culture, at least the men. The ones who don't are the women of course. And the politicians who speak against it from the Middle East do so for other reasons and not because they do not believe in Honor Killing.. they are politicians like here. I would say the majority there does not care either way and I do not see them condemning it except for the women (and rightfully so). What you do not get in your head is that this practice is in the extreme ends of society but society as a whole in their world does not condemn it. If they did this practice will be out the door already.
On a sidenote... just curious.. but are you muslim or middle eastern descent Doden that you are so passionate about this issue? I really wonder if you would still think the same way if your own father or brother Honor Killed your mother or sister. If they should still only get jail for 6 months or even just two years and not the death penalty. It is easy to say well let's just give them jail time and not death penalty but till you have it done to you , you can't really say otherwise. And I know you'll say that no matter what you wouldn't condone the Death Penalty but none of us can say that till we have that happen in our own families.
It's a recorded historical fact that the Arabs in the region prior to where Islam began was an area inhabited by disjointed tribes. Not only that, but they were an incredibly war-like people; when Islam came these tribes actually became united for the first time in "god-knows-when". Although Islam did pacify many, as soon as Mo' died all hell broke loose due to political conflict (something that happens in just about every culture...). Cultural habits die hard, especially with the assimilation of a religion. To assume that Islam, a religion of peace, can instantly save face against a people who use it for their own political gains is foolish.
There are also MANY nations that are predominately Muslim, and they are not found with massive internal fighting. God forbid anyone realize that there are other variables in play in the fucking middle east. All Arabs are not in the damn Dark Ages....
It's about power for fucks sake, that seems to be the general rule of thumb for the 20/21st century.
A better example of religious ideology that has not been let go due to culture would be the caste system within India...it's existed for a looooong time, and currently (according to alt he research I've read) shows no sign of slowing down yet. Change, in any religion (whether it be racism or honor killings) is hard to change.
There are also MANY nations that are predominately Muslim, and they are not found with massive internal fighting. God forbid anyone realize that there are other variables in play in the fucking middle east. All Arabs are not in the damn Dark Ages....
It's about power for fucks sake, that seems to be the general rule of thumb for the 20/21st century.
A better example of religious ideology that has not been let go due to culture would be the caste system within India...it's existed for a looooong time, and currently (according to alt he research I've read) shows no sign of slowing down yet. Change, in any religion (whether it be racism or honor killings) is hard to change.
And as far as contemporary examples go - there are many. Both world wars are prime examples, as most participants came from a primarily Christian background. Most notable however would be WWII, Hitler was a Christian, as were many of his followers - not only that, but if you count in America, Britain, France, etc...
Although you can discuss how war can be justified, or if the people who fought could actually be considered Christians from an observer perspective (they don't in an objective sense - broken commandments all around; plus the very fact that religion lost much of its impact towards the laity...it ends up becoming a common addition to prior social customs that aren't revered as much in a religious sense), that is still besides the point. If the followers of such a faith willingly state that they are Christian (to the best of their understanding and knowledge), and understand the core tenets of the faith...then they can be considered Christians for now (philosophical arguemnts aside...and yes I'm aware they exist).
Even if you want to argue about WWII, then what about Bosnia? The Serbs were Christians who had began a genocide of Muslims in the area with horrific results.
Another example: Rwanda. Huge Christian population who decided to just start butchering their contemporaries due to past European social stratifications and contemporary political agendas.
Another example: look at the fucking violence perpetuated in our own society. It doesn't fucking matter if you're religious or not, because it is usually a safe bet that the (generalizations ahead) person that is fucking you over, plotting to kill you, cheating with your wife, or any other god awful thing is also a Christian....a half-assed one at that. And if these problems can be attributed to an actual lack of religious devotion/knowledge, then there is no reason to say that any of the people in the Middle East are not half-assed Muslims.
It should also be mentioned that the death toll is not the sole prerequisite for judging a religion. With that, then we can take into account the bombing of abortion clinics, the persecution of anything that isn't Christian (ex: gays, atheists, other minority groups) by a large number of followers of the "good book". Oh, and women! Women have enjoyed a lot of gender equality from the good book haven't they! Hell, at least Mo' in Islam loved his fucking wife, with a decent amount of passages dedicated to her.
Although you can discuss how war can be justified, or if the people who fought could actually be considered Christians from an observer perspective (they don't in an objective sense - broken commandments all around; plus the very fact that religion lost much of its impact towards the laity...it ends up becoming a common addition to prior social customs that aren't revered as much in a religious sense), that is still besides the point. If the followers of such a faith willingly state that they are Christian (to the best of their understanding and knowledge), and understand the core tenets of the faith...then they can be considered Christians for now (philosophical arguemnts aside...and yes I'm aware they exist).
Even if you want to argue about WWII, then what about Bosnia? The Serbs were Christians who had began a genocide of Muslims in the area with horrific results.
Another example: Rwanda. Huge Christian population who decided to just start butchering their contemporaries due to past European social stratifications and contemporary political agendas.
Another example: look at the fucking violence perpetuated in our own society. It doesn't fucking matter if you're religious or not, because it is usually a safe bet that the (generalizations ahead) person that is fucking you over, plotting to kill you, cheating with your wife, or any other god awful thing is also a Christian....a half-assed one at that. And if these problems can be attributed to an actual lack of religious devotion/knowledge, then there is no reason to say that any of the people in the Middle East are not half-assed Muslims.
It should also be mentioned that the death toll is not the sole prerequisite for judging a religion. With that, then we can take into account the bombing of abortion clinics, the persecution of anything that isn't Christian (ex: gays, atheists, other minority groups) by a large number of followers of the "good book". Oh, and women! Women have enjoyed a lot of gender equality from the good book haven't they! Hell, at least Mo' in Islam loved his fucking wife, with a decent amount of passages dedicated to her.
entanglement
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The Heartbreak Kid
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Spot on
That is the arguement. THEY HAVE TAKEN A LIFE, SO THEIRS MUST BE FORFIT. End.
Dodens should be a teacher. Kids would want to hit him and remove his hair because he would be such an asshole.
skeptik
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Really? Bullshit. If these people valued their own lives so much they wouldn't regularly engage in suicide bombings. It's quite a rash assumption to make to think that a culture surrounded by so much violent death as there would actually give a damn about capital punishment and think twice about doing something.
The only problem you're forgetting is that honor killing is not the only crime in the middle east, and there's rampant possibility to be had all around for innocent people being executed for those other crimes.
Why do you bother condemning the culture at all if you only mean to make it worse by adding more killing? The middle east doesn't need your kind of help. They need stabilization, not more stringent penalties on criminal activity. And the rationality of "my theory is not backwards because I've decided that things will never change" is completely fatalist and worthless.
DING DING DING, this was my fucking point. Thank you very much.
Actually it's not, for many reasons. I was demonstrating how honor killings are practiced in the modern Western setting, and I was also making a point against something else that I disagree with. It wasn't really meant to be a point of focus in the argument to begin with though.
Well if you looked at the context of the statement, I think it's decently clear that it was not necessarily a specific statement about this specific indident.
Bullshit.
Ad of course it has nothing to do with cultural, political, and economic repression that prevents people from actively speaking out against it. Just because you don't see many protests against the practice does not mean that most people there do not condemn the practice. And by "society" you mean "the elite who dictate their own principles on society." Don't mistake the reality for the potentiality. If the people had their way, most likely honor killing WOULD be condemned. It's obviously condemned somewhat, or else they wouldn't bother arresting people for the murders at all.
No, but I'm passionate on issues that involve unnecessary killing and general ignorance on the subject.
I don't know why you (and others) have continued to imply that I'm fine with the pathetic sentences these murderers have received for these honor killings. 6 months in jail for murdering your daughter is bullshit. They should be put in jail until they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they would not do that again in the same situation. Which in practice will generally mean for life. It's a cultural mindset that is not easily distinguished, so these people will be locked away for the rest of their lives. Which would be a greater deterrent than the death penalty because an execution can be viewed as an honorable death or a martyrdom, which is what these people want. Dying of old age in a jail cell is shameful. I doubt that many Arabs would opt for that death.
It's not all that terribly hard to predict your feelings in a rational state regarding a situation. Of course there will be gut instincts, as displayed by the majority here in this thread, wishing harm upon the killer, that is a natural human impulse. But reason should override gut instinct. In a rational state, I would not wish death upon any man, regardless of what he has done, unless his life poses an imminent threat upon others. If anything, I think one should be able to choose between life imprisonment and the death penalty. I suppose I can't argue against somebody that WANTS to die.
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