Viking mythology and all that goes with it

[Tyra]

Well, they do... Some associate the fox with Loki, as in the trickster from Germanic lore. There is a character called Skyggabalder, that's the offspring of a cat and a fox. In your case though, I wonder if it's maybe more like a fylgia. A fylgia is a personal spirit, a guardian spirit. Often you know who it is because you feel kinship with certain animals, like I do with the wolf. When you ask people about the first time they met their fylgia, time and time again, strikingly often, you'll hear how unbelievably frightened they were. Recently; I've had two people tell me stories of foxes following them home in the oddest places and at the oddest times. They were both quite frightened, even though they don't think of the fox as a specifically dangerous animal. It's just the feeling that something is out of the ordinary. I felt like my first encounter was a test to see if I had the balls to be one of the pack. Once you figure out what's going on, and you face your fear, stare it down or whateve it takes, you dvelop a kinship with the animal, and it becomes a part of your personality (sort of, kind of hard to explain). One lady I know simply turned around and gave the fox what for. As for my wolf, I spoke to it and said I was not scared of it but loved it instead, and that I still had what it took to be part of the pack. I stared it in the eye the whole time we spoke. I would never do that to a dog if I didn't think that it was called for - I have kept enough dogs to know how they respond to being stared down...
The fox in its role as a fylgia is similar to the horse or the bear - it is a Jarl, and it likes to contact you, but it avoids conflict.
The fox in ON mythology warns of traps, shows up when there is some kind of deception in the air.

 

[Mauler]

Well, they do... Some associate the fox with Loki, as in the trickster from Germanic lore. There is a character called Skyggabalder, that's the offspring of a cat and a fox. In your case though, I wonder if it's maybe more like a fylgia. A fylgia is a personal spirit, a guardian spirit. Often you know who it is because you feel kinship with certain animals, like I do with the wolf. When you ask people about the first time they met their fylgia, time and time again, strikingly often, you'll hear how unbelievably frightened they were. Recently; I've had two people tell me stories of foxes following them home in the oddest places and at the oddest times. They were both quite frightened, even though they don't think of the fox as a specifically dangerous animal. It's just the feeling that something is out of the ordinary. I felt like my first encounter was a test to see if I had the balls to be one of the pack. Once you figure out what's going on, and you face your fear, stare it down or whateve it takes, you dvelop a kinship with the animal, and it becomes a part of your personality (sort of, kind of hard to explain). One lady I know simply turned around and gave the fox what for. As for my wolf, I spoke to it and said I was not scared of it but loved it instead, and that I still had what it took to be part of the pack. I stared it in the eye the whole time we spoke. I would never do that to a dog if I didn't think that it was called for - I have kept enough dogs to know how they respond to being stared down...
The fox in its role as a fylgia is similar to the horse or the bear - it is a Jarl, and it likes to contact you, but it avoids conflict.
The fox in ON mythology warns of traps, shows up when there is some kind of deception in the air.

That was exactly what I was looking for - thank you, it makes a bit more sense now

One last one that I hope isn't offensive to anyone - is there any evidence to support Odinism existing before Christianity as to me there's a slight hint of 'worship the one god above all others' to it that's present in most predominant religions around today. Could it's origins possibly be an ON influence twisting Christianity or vice versa? Just seems perculiar to me that as most written evidence is recorded by Christians so that anyone wanting to slyly worship Odin rather than the Christian god could do so but without being too far removed from the 'new religion' and thus further from persecution and to some the habit stuck, moving the rest of the pantheon out of the picture?

 

[Knarfi]

good stuff!

have they found anyone at all wearing Mjolnir before christianity? Like you said, I think they were worn only to combat the cross.
But before christianity I dont really see a reason for wearing something like that. The gods were all they knew, no reason to 'show off' really.

I think its not really to "show off" but to honour the gods. Somewhere in this topic i think theres an explanation that farmers used to wear a Mjölnir to honour Thor, since he was the slayer of giants (the destroyers of the farmlands). And therefor felt save/protected by Thor.

 

[Xyercies]

well knarfi...its not them who felt safe..its the plants that felt safe, not the farmer. lol

 

[Knarfi]

well knarfi...its not them who felt safe..its the plants that felt safe, not the farmer. lol

haha i think u know what i mean

 

[Tyra]

Yeah, what you said, Knarfi, but what I meant was that the ON loved their silver, and this was an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone - gain protection AND wear silver - whereas other cultures may have valued other things more and chosen a different medium to express it in.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

I think its not really to "show off" but to honour the gods. Somewhere in this topic i think theres an explanation that farmers used to wear a Mjölnir to honour Thor, since he was the slayer of giants (the destroyers of the farmlands). And therefor felt save/protected by Thor.

So you're saying that they did wear Mjolnir before the cross showed up?

 

[Tyra]

Not to step on Knarfi's toes, but...Hel yes, they did!

 

[DragonKeeper]

You know, I can only recall Scandinavian finds of Mjöllnir, and some plain ones from the UK... I only remember ever studying those, but no German ones. It might be that I learned about the Scandianvian ones because it's a Scandinavian university, but it might also have to do with the symbol being a different one - for example, in some areas it really is more common to symbolize Odin with a spear than with the "regular" axehead. Both of those options are fairly unlikely, though. I shall have to do some searching, but as of right now, I cannot think of a single thing that indicates that the Germans would have worn them.

Some say that the wearing of Mjöllner was something that was done in response to the Christians wearaing a crucifix. That would explain the problem, in that the Sae worshippers of the same deities were in earlier contact with the Christians than the Norse, and may have been converted by the time the fashion of wearing a hammer came about. As for myself, I really feel that the idea of the amulet wearing thing as a Christian influence is pure bullcrap (I base that on archaeological finds), but for what it's worth, you should know that the idea has been floated.
The Norse had a penchant for silver, and were more voracious in their appetite for it. Surely the Sae must have had symbols of some kind to symboloze Donner, but that doesn't mean they wore them. According to ethnoarchaeology, a lot of other cultures prefer(ed) to express their beliefs or try to gain the protection of their gods and goddesses in ways other than amulets, such as with tattoos or little pouches with magical items in them, or by regularly leaving offerings etc. Tattoos, leather pouches and much of what one would keep in one, as well as many food stuffs are biodegradable things, and not easily found by archaeologists.

Hmm...same here. I have never seen a German Thor's hammer, but many were Christianized before the Norse and the Slavs, so who knows. Although I have seen small usually lead plain Thor's hammers from the Saxon parts of Germany and the Netherlans, perhaps from the Danish influence? In the Baltic and around Kiev and Novgorod many small plain Thor's hammers have been found, usually of carneilian, rock crystal, iron, silver (tinned), and agate. But this may be the Slavic influence or style because Perun, the thunder god like Thor, carried a magical hammer. Ya, we so far do not have any archeological evidence that Vikings and Slavs had tatoos, but they found an important Scythian chieftan with full on body tatoos, which is a clue that some ancient Slavs might have had tatoos. According to that Arabic historian Ibn Faladin (haha i forgot his name), he claimed both Vikings and the Rus had tatoos, but he clearly mixes the two peoples up in his writtings so I don't know.

Vikings used silver (hack silver) as wearable currency, so when it wasn't horded it was worn hehe. That is how many displayed their wealth.

About seeing that fox...I think it just depends upon how you feel about it. If you feel it means something, then it means something to you for you. I often dream of caring for injured animals, usually foxes or wolves for some reason. I love both creatures and I did see a fox staring though my sliding glass door into the living room and I almost let it in thinking it was one of my cats (i was really half asleep haha). I told my grandmother about it and she thought it was a bad omen because in Slavic stories the fox is seen as a cunning and sly trickster, but not to me. So it really depends on whos perspective it is comming from really. Sadly I have never seen a wild wolf since they no longer exist in California, but there are plenty of mountian lions, bob cats, and coyotes around here, and both black and pacific brown bears futher north where I camp.

Oh Tyra, by the way...how was your trip to the archeological dig?

 

[Tyra]

Yeah, I remember those plain hammers, too, but...uuuh...am not going there because the political thing it involves. Basically, what you consider Danish territory versus German depends on your upbringing. Sort of. None the less, I have thought of them as Saxon hammers, but I have no idea how old they were and if they actually were Saxon proper (as in "worn by Sae"), or if they were found in places that were held by the Danes at the time, and thus are Danish. Get it? That Schleswig-Holstein type thing, again.

The dig was amazing!!! We somehow managed to only have to dig in the rain once, which is always a good thing. You get more digging done in one month if you don't have to keep stopping for rain. The ground was very much full of rocks, so loads of buckets of rocks to schlepp back and forth. I have muscles in places I didn't know existed as a result (it's easy in the beginning of the dig, when the pit is not so deep, but when you're dug in and you have to hop in and out of it with a ten litre bucket full of rocks, it's not so easy...). Anyhow, there were many favourite moments, some more serious ones like when we found the second ever set of postholes on the site, or when any of the six skeletons were first discovered, lots of really cool tools, hunks of animal bones and so, but also silly moments like when one of the girls got her ass stuck in the elecric fence... (we were surrounded nu cowpastures, complete with a buge bull named Tiny). We found loads of stuff, and I learned an incredibe amount of things, as usual.

Some students that attended the dig have posted pics on the net (we're not really supposed to, because of looters, so I will not post mine). If you're interested, you can see them here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dolly82arkeolog
http://www.silvestris.net/images/photos/ajvide/

Also, while you're there, check out "Silvestris' " really nice gallery. She's a great artist, IMHO./T

 

[tijdbom]

About which battle is Beheading of a King?

 

[Mauler]

You have PMs, Tyra

 

[Tyra]

"You have PMs, Tyra "
I know, sorry all, my computer has been sick...seems to be well now after some nursing by my husband.

have they found anyone at all wearing Mjolnir before christianity? .

Sorry, I totally missed that post! The oldest mjöllnirs that I can think of are old enough that they would roughly correspond to the very first arrival of Christianity to the Norse area. I would say that mjöllnir was worn before the arrival of the new faith, but that's sort of beside the point - the Scandinavian people have shared symbolism and other trappings of religious practise with the peoples along the Atlantic coast going back into the stone age. They traveled extremely long distances for the purpose of this and for the purpose of trade long befoer the vikings started to travel. Even if the new faith wasn't present in Scandianvia at the time people started wearing the hammer, it is virtually impossible to say if it was a result of contact with Christians. We just will never know. My gut feeling says they wore it on their own accord, for protection, and not as a symbol to show "I am asatru". I also base that on the fact that the whole concept of "religion" and worldly vs heavenly didn't exist before the new faith. There just are not traces of that. All was/is holy, and in that case, you wouldn't really have to display that you were of that particular faith, because it's a given. Then, later on, it was not a good thing to be wearing a mjöllnir if you wanted to trade, because Christians were not allowed to knowingly trade with heathens (that's when we start to see people wearing both a hammer and a cucifix).

"One last one that I hope isn't offensive to anyone - is there any evidence to support Odinism existing before Christianity as to me there's a slight hint of 'worship the one god above all others' to it that's present in most predominant religions around today. Could it's origins possibly be an ON influence twisting Christianity or vice versa?"

Well, I think that's a good question. I've tried to find that out myself, and I cannot find anything that indicates that Odinism is not a "recreationist" faith (for lack of a better word - it doesn't really apply in the first place, and besides, in heathen circles it has taken on a tone of disrespect and patronization. I do not mean to be patronizing in this instance.) Most of the ON deities had their own cult, except for Loki, apparently. Odinism might be more closely related to that than what you suggest. But it is an intriguing thought, though, isn't it? I just cannot substantiate it with either text nor archaeological finds.

"About which battle is Beheading of a King?"
I believe there's a whole thread about that...I think the conclusion was that it's a fictional battle, but don't quote me. Try the search engine!/T

 

[Larsson]

I have been reading Egil's Saga which Tyra kindly linked me to.

CHAPTER XXV.

Skallagrim's journey to the king.

Skallagrim made him ready for this journey, choosing out of his household and neighbours the strongest and doughtiest that were to be found. One was Ani, a wealthy landowner, another Grani, a third Grimolf and his brother Grim, house-carles these of Skallagrim, and the two brothers Thorbjorn Krum and Thord Beigaldi. These were called Thororna's sons; she dwelt hard by Skallagrim, and was of magic skill. Beigaldi was a coal-biter. There was a man named Thorir Giant, and his brother Thorgeir Earthlong, Odd Lonedweller, and Griss Freedman. Twelve there were for the journey, all stalwart men, and several of them shape-strong.

Whats a coal-biter?

 

[Tyra]

The definition of a coal-biter, kolbitr, I would say, would be one who lays about, a lout, and idle person, but then rises to prove his worth and becomes mighty. The person you are refering to, was a layabout in his youth but who later proved his worth. The term comes from laying around the fire, playing with- and biting into the charcoals and getting dirty, and is occasionally also applied to small children and incapacitated people, who also were left to lie by the warm fire.
In Landnámabók is says about the brothers: "Det var två bröder, Thorbjörn den krokige och Thord beigaldi hette de, och till dem skänkte Skalla-Grim land väster om Gufá; Thorbjörn bodde på Holar och Tord på Beigaldi."

 

[DragonKeeper]

Yeah, I remember those plain hammers, too, but...uuuh...am not going there because the political thing it involves. Basically, what you consider Danish territory versus German depends on your upbringing. Sort of. None the less, I have thought of them as Saxon hammers, but I have no idea how old they were and if they actually were Saxon proper (as in "worn by Sae"), or if they were found in places that were held by the Danes at the time, and thus are Danish. Get it? That Schleswig-Holstein type thing, again.

The dig was amazing!!! We somehow managed to only have to dig in the rain once, which is always a good thing. You get more digging done in one month if you don't have to keep stopping for rain. The ground was very much full of rocks, so loads of buckets of rocks to schlepp back and forth. I have muscles in places I didn't know existed as a result (it's easy in the beginning of the dig, when the pit is not so deep, but when you're dug in and you have to hop in and out of it with a ten litre bucket full of rocks, it's not so easy...). Anyhow, there were many favourite moments, some more serious ones like when we found the second ever set of postholes on the site, or when any of the six skeletons were first discovered, lots of really cool tools, hunks of animal bones and so, but also silly moments like when one of the girls got her ass stuck in the elecric fence... (we were surrounded nu cowpastures, complete with a buge bull named Tiny). We found loads of stuff, and I learned an incredibe amount of things, as usual.

Some students that attended the dig have posted pics on the net (we're not really supposed to, because of looters, so I will not post mine). If you're interested, you can see them here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dolly82arkeolog
http://www.silvestris.net/images/photos/ajvide/

Also, while you're there, check out "Silvestris' " really nice gallery. She's a great artist, IMHO./T

Ah thanks for the photos! I have always wanted to go on a dig....
I may have goofed on which area was controlled by the Germans and which area was controlled by the Danes at the the time, so no worries. Meh politics....it is never far behind is it hahaha.

Poor Loki seems to be ignored more often than not....
*pictures a little kid throwing a hissy fit*
I guess his childish personality doesn't make him very people-friendly. Then again, some of his actions and reactions, depending on the story, are relatively the same as a normal person's...like the story of Baldur and the mistletoe. I wouldn't want to hear that constant boasting either! A person's pride is generally irritating to everyone else around them and causes more harm than good. On the other hand, Loki's jealousy isn't rewarded either. If it wasn't for Loki that story could never be as effective. Issues such as self-centeredness, pride, boasting, jealousy, arrogance, alienation, etc may not have been addressed so clearly in one tale

 

[Tyra]

Heh, sounds to me like you have apretty good grasp of Loki... I relate to him the way I relate to a five-year-old.

Oh, and regarding the pics, if you look in the bottom left corner on "dolly's" first page, there is a pic called "Teacher and students". If you check out the group of people hanging out in the background, I'm the one in the green jacket, black pants and a blue Team Sweden hat. That picture was taken exactly .2 seconds before I made the tall guy in the green jacket (Micke) jump two feet in the air, cuz I blasted AA in his ears so loud he almost died from the shock. I "terrorized" all the students by playing the complete works of AA in the pit the whole month, so by the time we left, there were quite a few new fans!/T

 

[Blutaar]

I like that picture, would be a great artwork^^

 

[Tyra]

Yeah, isn't that cool?!! That was one of the last skeletons we found, and it was not buried alone, but rather in a double grave. See all the little crud all around it? Those are drilled through pig's teeth, from a necklace that the individual was buried with. I cannot wait to see the report on this one, as I never got to find out if it was a he or a she and the age.
I think my fave is the bone fish hook.

 

[DragonKeeper]

Damn straight its cool! I cannot wait for the report on it either...I am so curious! I was hopping that they would publish it at some point. Ya, the fish hook is great. It looks like the skull is from a young person, but I am probably wrong haha. Do you have the report on the skeleton buried with this one? Hahaha new AA fans are always welcome!