Viking mythology and all that goes with it

I do, I'm only italian... what do we do?
Fight in very tight formations that are virtually impenetrable, use very sharp swords and device tactics that are difficult to beat. And if that weren't bad enough, device a frigging language that takes three years of college to even begin to grasp, just to confuse us dumb barbarians (even if we capture a messenger or overhear any of the fieldmarshal's plans for the next battle, we'd have to spend several days trying to decypher sentences like "Semper in faecibus sumum, sole profundum variat", so by the time get the joke, we're already in Valhall).:Smug:
My only complaint about Romans is the weird fashion. I can barely appreciate the damn sandals, but, dude, what is up with the miniskirts on the boys and the red brooms on the helms??
 
Yeah, Bates, I know, it hurts! I get the thoughts and make the connections, but then when I try to put it into papers, I am told by the proffs that we cannot believe anything historic written about the Norse. Everything has to be supported with archaeological finds, and when you do that, they say the finds are circumstantial and can support any give theory. It's irritating as hell when you can clearly see patterns, can support them with five or six or more unrelated text sources, and can show that the archaeological finds are present, but they still don't see the connection. Or deny it.
====
SNIP
====

That is pretty typical, they want facts and when they get some it's not enough :p

Shealladh, I wasn't giving you crap about the thread. I think it'd be a really good idea to have a thread with everybody's art work, because there are so many of us that do art based on this music in this forum. Questions and comments keep coming up relating to it, so I thought we'd started one, but then I really don't know if we all just suggested that we start one but never did, or if we actually did. Anyhow, it's gone now, so I think we should start a new one. If you resurrect old threads, people just get their asses in a real twist anyhow (myself being one of them...)

EzR. yeah, it is Bonnie and Erics' art. They're both amazing artists, but they're also amazing people in general. Bonnie is one of those people that, to me, personifies a true Valkyrie. In our SCA houeshold, her and I have honorary titles of Household Valkyries. I guess there's a reason for it...

np, I just wanted to place my post in trhe proper place and not interfer with the discussion on myth/legend that's all. No offense taken.

btw, when is your thesis going to be done, curious to read it!!!

I don't feel so stupid now that I know there are other's out there that create pieces from music, or use it to create. (I thought I was alone until now) :D

I see Erzebeth.Rouge has started a thread for us pencil pusher's :kickass:
 
The thesis is done. There may be one or two more things to edit, but it's done in the sens of writing it and putting all the connections and patterns on paper, deleting 2/3's of them becuase I'm only allowed so many pages, and then writing bridges over the holes that they left, editing the formalities (problemizing the material, explaining my method cover page, current research, index page, correcting margins, double spacing, adding one inch between each headline and the other text, bibliography etc. - the stuff that eats pages that I could have used!!). Now I have to wait about two months before I get to do the disputation, then I still have to translate it into English for you lot. After I do that, I am going to add the bits that I had to take out for school, so that, eventually, I can get the whole thing published.
In the meantime, I am taking quartenary geology for archaeologists.
Bates, I managed to figure that map out finally. At least I passed...
 
Good! Sorry I couldn't be more help with it. Still idiotic that they give you a messed up map as coursework, unless you're taking "Pirate Booty Hunting 101".
I knew there was a reason I didn't like school! :p
 
Yeah, I gave my prof all sorts of crap for giving us that particular map. It's a Norse bitch thing (while we're on the subject) - no fear of no one! I don't think I learned anything much from the assignment, either, which blows. The next assigment is teaching me all sorts, though. It's kind of fun. I get a photo of a profile of several layers of dirt, and I get to tell them which layers I would choose to excavate and why. I think you're supposed to just look at the layers, but I don't tick like that, so I am looking at the history of the site, too. Turns out that, according to old text sources, there was a place called Tingsvalla, Thing Wall, somewhere in the area - hasn't been located yet - but in the exercise it says there likely isn't anything to be found under the current town. It was founded in 1500-something, but I have a difficult time believeing that king Karl would have parked a town right on top of nothing in the middle of the sticks, and I also have a hard time believeing that people before then would pass up on fertile river delta property. So, I'm not only learning to read the layers of soil, but I am learning all sorts about medieval Karlstad and such. The soil is kind of cool because of the layering from the river flooding off and on, and you have to figure out what was above surface before the land rose to current level and all. Anyhow, totally o/t...
 
OK, so I'll stir the pot:
1. To whom do the Gods make sacrifice (says in some of the ON texts that they did)?

2. Do the Norse Gods exist for us, or do we exist for them, or both (providing, of course, that you can picture gods and goddesses in your mind)?

3. Did the leader of the Norse troops, the drott, exist for his men, or did the men exist for him, and does that apply to the armies of today?

(Sorry if that hurt your head, Bates.)
 
Ohh, philosophizing, my favorite! Hehe, I'll hit this one up after work, need to do a bit of reading, since I can only think of the 'RunatalsÞattr Oðins', and I know there's others.


... I hurt myself trying. Or actually, I ran out of time, so I'm going to write it down elsewhere and perhaps put it up later. Gotta get back to work on the forge, got most of my materials, at least enough to get it all assembled. Doing a 2-day blacksmithing class-thingy in the next couple of weeks, too. :)
 
Alright, any hints on question 1? I don't know if I reading the wrong ones or just not making the connection here...

My answer is going to be a work in progress. I can't seem to come up with concise answers that don't sound idiotic or oxymoronic. Of course, the long versions may be the same, but at least they'll be dumb in a lot more words. ;)
 
I've been hunting around for good translations of the old stories, even though alot is cluttered up with some weird religious freaks, I did manage to find some that seem to be authentic such as this one;

There is a mystical being called Näcken, that can be seen in many different shapes. The most usual shape, is a naked man sitting in the darkness in a small stream playing a fiddle. The music makes any listener want to go closer, and when you get close enough, he grabs you and pulls you down the water.

There is a story about Näcken being the most skilled fiddler in the world. So if you as a Spelman (folkmusician) manage to meet him you can get tought on how to play as he does.

You can go to a stream in three thursdaynights in a row, and on each night you hang up your fiddle in a tree and sit down and wait the rest of the night. On the third thursdaynight, you hang up your fiddle as usual, but when you are going to take your fiddle down from the tree and get home, you notice that there are two fiddles hanging there. If you take your fiddle, you get to play with Näcken, and if you take his fiddle, he pulls you down into the water.

It is said that a fiddler playing like näcken will make people dance, and even chairs and tables aswell. If he doesn't stop playing, people can't stop dancing. So the only way to stop him, is that a person that didn't hear him play since the beginning, will run to him and cut of his strings.

Näcken has other shapes aswell, and one being a great horse, called Bäckahästen (stream-horse). The horse gets longer and longer the more persons sitting on it, and suddenly it runs down into the water and pulling the riders in with it.

With another collection here, so could someone verify if these are genuine?

Or is there some place I can read translated texts without all the other BS mixed into them, spoiling what I'm aiming to do with them all.
 
OK, so I'll stir the pot:
1. To whom do the Gods make sacrifice (says in some of the ON texts that they did)?

2. Do the Norse Gods exist for us, or do we exist for them, or both (providing, of course, that you can picture gods and goddesses in your mind)?

3. Did the leader of the Norse troops, the drott, exist for his men, or did the men exist for him, and does that apply to the armies of today?

(Sorry if that hurt your head, Bates.)

*ponders* I'm at work so I'll keep these answers short as to not get busted :p

1. The only instance of this that I remember so far is Fenrir when it's decided that Tyr sacrifices his hand. I don't think it's planned that way but Tyr steps up to the plate, so to speak. Apart from that I couldn't really think of anything that the Gods would offer to. Not the Norns for as powerful as they are they seem to be un-coercable in their weaving of fate for man and god. The sun and moon spring to mind but...I dunno.

2. Philosophy! Intreaguing question, I hope you're not using us to pass exams, Tyra ;) I'm in two minds on this one. With the limited hindsight that I have I believe that to the ON their pantheon was very real. The Aesir and Vanir have the people hope in their freezing (and often remote?) climate and got them through what I think may have been a very harsh existance. But then looking back it's not too difficult to see the connection between different aspects of Norse life and their gods - traders, warriors, social classes...each had their own gods and goddesses so the more cynical person could theorise that what became the ON pantheon simply started out as songs and stories to support and nourish the people. Is a question of faith, perhaps and how hard do you believe?

3. In any military unit the officers are there for the troops. They control the troops, empower the troops, the good officers are troops too. Without control an armed force is just a rabble because without control power is nothing. It has to be said that officers, inversely, are nothing without their troops to command but the difference is that the officers can't survive without the troops but the troops are still troops without an officer :p
 
I've been hunting around for good translations of the old stories, even though alot is cluttered up with some weird religious freaks, I did manage to find some that seem to be authentic such as this one;



With another collection here, so could someone verify if these are genuine?

Or is there some place I can read translated texts without all the other BS mixed into them, spoiling what I'm aiming to do with them all.

You mean are the texts excerpts, like the ones from the Eddas, the original words? Yes, they are. Go to www.northvegr.org for their text archive. In there, you'll find the Eddas and much, much more in several translations and several languages.
 
Yeah, Arild Hauge is very good. The dude that runs it is on some of the lists and stuff that I'm on. He knows his stuff for sure.
I've been looking at that course, too. I found one in Swedish, too, but I don't have the link right now. It would have been very useful to have ON for this damn thesis (I think I'm going to change the name of it to just "Damn thesis", since that's all I ever call it...).

Philosophy and politics would be very boring if we all agreed on everything. I for one don't expect that people will always agree with me, but it's nice when you can keep the discussions friendly. The question about to whom the gods sacrifice is one that has caused very many furious screaming matches in the past. I think it's an interesting question, and one that doesn't have a true or false answer. It's good to bounce ideas around, so you don't end up with an idea in a vacuum, right?
 
On that note, I finally finished, well, a part of my answer (there will be more)...

Now, lets us drink and philosophize! The first one is a rather tough question. Perhaps I have just not read the right lays, but I can find only small, backhanded references to the Aesir making sacrifice, and nothing on to what or whom they would've given sacrifices. And then, of course, the question would would, in what manner did they make sacrifice? Would they hang, burn or bury something to send its "spirit" on to receiver? Or would it be more akin to the modern blot, in which it was less a "sacrifice" and more an offer of hospitality? Perhaps the answer is none of these, and the point was not sacrificing to something, but more akin to Oðinn's ordeal on the world tree. In other words, the making of sacrifice itself was the point, for whatever reasons. (Which I'll save for another installment)
 
As for the "whatever reasons" I previously mentioned, what I am talking of relates to shamanism, and the various rites of ordeal and sacrifice that were used by many cultures to gain insight into and communication with the primal spirits of, well, pretty much everything, somewhat akin to the landvættir. Alternatively, there is also the paradigm of power through discipline. If one can master themselves enough to give up something held dear, then one has gained power over themselves and is more able to focus themselves and their energies (physical, mental, whatever) on other things.

On to the second question, do the Norse Gods exist for us, or do we exist for them, or both? This question is rather close to the penultimate question of "What are the gods, and where did they come from?" My thinking would be that 'both' is the closest of the answers. I have two nearly parallel, but somewhat contradictory, lines of thought on the matter.

The first line of thought is what I'll term the "mythological " view. In this, the gods are pretty much as described in the Eddas, beings rather similar in appearance and thinking to mankind. One could argue that these similarities are due to Oðinn and his brothers gifting humanity with the mental "spark of life" that enabled humanity to move beyond living a life in the short term, and to begin having and using insight into the way the world works. In other words, to stop merely reacting to the things around them, and be able to analyze these things and see the patterns of the world and plan ahead. And of course, the gods we know and love are not the only beings of their "level", as illustrated by the various tribes of giants, some of whom were capable of challenging and even defeating the gods on equal footing. As for our interactions with them, the gods and ourselves are two parallel societies, if you will. Our fates are interwoven, but seperate. You could say that as the tapestry has been woven, it has gone from being being a pattern in which warp and weft (Humanity being the weft, and the higher powers the warp) were nearly equal, and equally seen by all, to one in which the weft has covered the warp, leaving the appearance of only the weft. Perhaps a poor analogy, but it's the best I could think up.

And that's about as far as I have gotten so far. Part 2 of question 2 will have to wait until I can recollect my thoughts, which tend to scatter in a thousand directions when I try and write stuff like this. :)
 
So I found this abstract that about sums up what I was trying to explain re the famous temple before, only I can't explain it as nicely, so I'll just post the abstract itself... -T

Alkarp, M. & Price, N. 2005. Tempel av guld eller kyrka av trä? Markradarundersökningar vid Gamla Uppsala kyrka. (Golden temple or wooden church? A ground-penetrating radar survey of Gamla Uppsala church). Fornvännen 100. Stockholm.

In 1164 the archbishopric of Sweden was established at Gamla Uppsala, once the political centre of the Svear kingdom in the Late Iron Age and a stronghold of pre-Christian cult. This highly symbolic decision was manifested through the construction of one of the largest churches in Scandinavia. The cathedral church at Gamla Uppsala was allegedly built on the same spot as the famous pagan temple described by Adam of Bremen in the early 1070s. Excavations carried out there in 1926 revealed a complex stratigraphic sequence and a confusing set of postholes that were immediately interpreted as the remains of the temple. Though still maintained today in school textbooks and elsewhere, this conclusion is clear ly erroneous as the postholes can be shown stratigraphically to belong to several different phases of construction.
The events of the period c. 1050-1150 in Gamla Uppsala have never been satisfactorily understood, but there is clear evidence to suggest that the cathedral was by no means the first church to have been built on the site. In an effort to elucidate this early history of the church plateau, in 2003 04 we examined the area with ground-penetrating radar. In this paper we discuss some of the more important results of these investigations.