Bates
Swamp Yankee
Hehe, guess I shouldn't be surprised. If I ever do manage to learn Swedespeak, I'll bug you about it. 
Viking mythology and all that goes with it
- Thread starter Celtik Militia
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Tyra
Member
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Thanks Tyra, it really is interesting ^^
So Sif would fight as a warrior and be married in the same time? is there other goddess in the lore that would be the same? and what about valkyries? arent they some sort of fighters too? but i guess they stay unmarried?
So Sif would fight as a warrior and be married in the same time? is there other goddess in the lore that would be the same? and what about valkyries? arent they some sort of fighters too? but i guess they stay unmarried?
Tyra
Member
Nota bene: I said "In Scandinavia she is considered a shield maiden" because this is not universally accepted.
Freya is arguably the most famous shield maiden of them all. She often participates in the Wild Hunt and is, like Oden, seen in battle on occasion. Like Siv, she too is notably NOT a maiden.
The Valkyries are maidens, more presicely "the maidens of Oden". They are both beautiful and horrible. They had several jobs:
1. To preside over battle and scout out the bravest of the slain who the Valkyrie then escorts back to Valhall, where the warriors become einherjar.
2. To minister at the sumbel feasts in Valhall, where they are in charge of the all-important silver service and the mead.
3. To be Odin's messengers. As they ride across the sky to deliver these messages, their armour reflect an odd light, what we today call Aurora Borealis, or Northern lights.
The most famous of the valkyries I guess is Brunhildr, who is the main character of the original Story of the Ring, Völsunga Saga (which Wagner turned into The Ring of the Niebelungs - look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brynhildr for the storyline), but Sigrdrifa has her own lay in the Edda, which is less famlous but probably more quoted. It is from Sigrdrifumal that we get much of the ritual and many of the verses and such that we recite in the faith today.
Freya is arguably the most famous shield maiden of them all. She often participates in the Wild Hunt and is, like Oden, seen in battle on occasion. Like Siv, she too is notably NOT a maiden.
The Valkyries are maidens, more presicely "the maidens of Oden". They are both beautiful and horrible. They had several jobs:
1. To preside over battle and scout out the bravest of the slain who the Valkyrie then escorts back to Valhall, where the warriors become einherjar.
2. To minister at the sumbel feasts in Valhall, where they are in charge of the all-important silver service and the mead.
3. To be Odin's messengers. As they ride across the sky to deliver these messages, their armour reflect an odd light, what we today call Aurora Borealis, or Northern lights.
The most famous of the valkyries I guess is Brunhildr, who is the main character of the original Story of the Ring, Völsunga Saga (which Wagner turned into The Ring of the Niebelungs - look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brynhildr for the storyline), but Sigrdrifa has her own lay in the Edda, which is less famlous but probably more quoted. It is from Sigrdrifumal that we get much of the ritual and many of the verses and such that we recite in the faith today.
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
I have read Siv can change her shape into a swan? is there a rune more attuned to Siv, like Baldr's Sowilo?
is there black swans in scandinavia?
What looks like a woman warrior's armor in those times?
What hall is she living in in Asgard? does Thor have his own hall or does he resides in Valhall too? and there therefore would Siv reside there too?
is there black swans in scandinavia?
What looks like a woman warrior's armor in those times?
What hall is she living in in Asgard? does Thor have his own hall or does he resides in Valhall too? and there therefore would Siv reside there too?
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Thor's hall is Bilskirnir, where the best beer is brewed, I'd assume Sif probably dwells there as well. I don't know about the swan thing, but shapechanging was a fairly common power among the Aesir. Even Thor, who was the least "magical" of them, changed himself into a small boy when he went fishing for Jormungandr. 
As for women's arms, I'd say they were likely the same as the men, as the standard of chain hauberk, helmet, and shield were unisex, not being particularly form fitting. But perhaps Tyra can shed more light on that, sounds like something that would be right up her alley.
As for women's arms, I'd say they were likely the same as the men, as the standard of chain hauberk, helmet, and shield were unisex, not being particularly form fitting. But perhaps Tyra can shed more light on that, sounds like something that would be right up her alley.
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Tyra
Member
Black swans are a genetic anomaly where I come from, but they do happen. It's difficult to say about womens' armour, since we have none to look at, and armour was not very common for the common man, never mind woman, in the first place. Scale mail was more common in the earlier part of the era, and then long chain mail, both of which bio-degrade nicely when buried...leaving us with "not much". The picuter stones don't show women in armour, as far as I can remember.
Yes, Siv presumably lives with Tor, her children and Roskva in the gigantic wooden hall Bilskirnir. Grimnismal says that Bilskirnir is the biggest of all wooden halls, and that it has 540 rooms. It is located in Asagard in the country of Thrudheim. Where Siv lives is implicit, since she's married to Tor, but she is just barely mentioned in the oral tradition and litterature, and so is not mentioned to have her own dwelling. She is also not included in the list of goddesses in the Edda, so we know very little about her. I've been told that the idea of her being a fertility goddess is a later invention (as in late 1800's) where she was coupled with fertility on account of her golden hair, and now that I've checked, on account of your asking, I cannot find any traces in the archaeology of her being worshipped, so that may be true. I have one more source I want to check, in terms of place names, which is usually quite telling, but it'll have to wait until I am not so swamped.
I am not so good at the runes in terms of which god and goddess is attached to what rune, other than each aettir, since I do not meddle with galdr. I can read runes in terms of rune casting (I will get back to you re your mail on rune sets, btw, it's just that I've been slammed with work and now I'm leaving town for a week or so with no internet hook-up - going in the sticks!! Yay!) and in terms of alphabet, but I purposely stay away from galdr and rely on the Norns doing their thing. Runesinger knows more about what it entails, so maybe you could PM her with your question. Or google it - most sites will tell you what/who's attached to what rune.
Yes, Siv presumably lives with Tor, her children and Roskva in the gigantic wooden hall Bilskirnir. Grimnismal says that Bilskirnir is the biggest of all wooden halls, and that it has 540 rooms. It is located in Asagard in the country of Thrudheim. Where Siv lives is implicit, since she's married to Tor, but she is just barely mentioned in the oral tradition and litterature, and so is not mentioned to have her own dwelling. She is also not included in the list of goddesses in the Edda, so we know very little about her. I've been told that the idea of her being a fertility goddess is a later invention (as in late 1800's) where she was coupled with fertility on account of her golden hair, and now that I've checked, on account of your asking, I cannot find any traces in the archaeology of her being worshipped, so that may be true. I have one more source I want to check, in terms of place names, which is usually quite telling, but it'll have to wait until I am not so swamped.
I am not so good at the runes in terms of which god and goddess is attached to what rune, other than each aettir, since I do not meddle with galdr. I can read runes in terms of rune casting (I will get back to you re your mail on rune sets, btw, it's just that I've been slammed with work and now I'm leaving town for a week or so with no internet hook-up - going in the sticks!! Yay!) and in terms of alphabet, but I purposely stay away from galdr and rely on the Norns doing their thing. Runesinger knows more about what it entails, so maybe you could PM her with your question. Or google it - most sites will tell you what/who's attached to what rune.
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Thanks Tyra ^^
i will wait lol no problem
is it written anywhere what Thrudheim looks like as the landscape?
and if theres only a rough idea about armors, then what looks like the women's cloths then? what were they wearing? are the folkloric robes of the right era? i dont think so.. and norwegian and swedish must differ anyway especially over time.
So have you finished your big writing project so we can read it?
have fun during that week ^^
i will wait lol no problem
is it written anywhere what Thrudheim looks like as the landscape?
and if theres only a rough idea about armors, then what looks like the women's cloths then? what were they wearing? are the folkloric robes of the right era? i dont think so.. and norwegian and swedish must differ anyway especially over time.
So have you finished your big writing project so we can read it?
have fun during that week ^^
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Nevermind about clothes, ive found this kind of apron-dress which seems to be of the right era.
But now, im puzzled as to what colour i should use. i cannot find any information about the meaning of colors in norse culture, even if i found a good site where they describe each color they were using for their different textiles, for dyers etc. what would be a fiting color for Siv...
But now, im puzzled as to what colour i should use. i cannot find any information about the meaning of colors in norse culture, even if i found a good site where they describe each color they were using for their different textiles, for dyers etc. what would be a fiting color for Siv...
Tyra
Member
To the best of my knowledge, there is no description of the landscape, just the hall. I guess it'd be safe to go with a "generic Scandinavian landscape".
If you scroll back a bit in this thread, two or so pages (edit: page 61), there is a picture of me in my garb and bling bling. That is, as far as we know, how women dressed (except for the horn - disregard it, just wore it because it was stinking how!). Again, fashion changes over time, and you're looking at a time-span of several hundred years and a vast geographical area, so it is safe to assume that what I am wearing in that pic is just one passability of many. Mine is based on a Birka woman at about 980 AD. There was also a sort of peplos dress earlier, but I cannot tell you which area that applies to. Again, there is an extremely small amount of womens' clothing in the archaeological record. Most of it is in peices the size of stamps. That shows us the material and weave, and the picturestones show us some of how it was worn, but they are not very detailed pictures. The beads and brooches survive, which makes it possible for us to judge how things were held together and so on, and experimental archaeology can tell us a bit about what worked and what didn't, so really, what you see in that pic is a "best guess". There are differences in colour that is specific to geographic area - I'd have to look this up for you -but mostly it's to do with buying power. If you're rich, you can buy fancier material and fancier dyes. That applies to later times, as well. In Rome, it was only the higher up senators that were allowed purple at a certain time, and in northern Europe in the 1700's it was only the really rich that could afford wear blue. In the 1500's some colour were illegal for some people to wear. It all has to do with the expensive dyes, and this applies to the viking era, too. Brighter colours were loved and worn by those that could.
The folk costumes hail from anywhere between the 1700-mid 1900's and cannot be used as a guide to Iron Age garb.
If you scroll back a bit in this thread, two or so pages (edit: page 61), there is a picture of me in my garb and bling bling. That is, as far as we know, how women dressed (except for the horn - disregard it, just wore it because it was stinking how!). Again, fashion changes over time, and you're looking at a time-span of several hundred years and a vast geographical area, so it is safe to assume that what I am wearing in that pic is just one passability of many. Mine is based on a Birka woman at about 980 AD. There was also a sort of peplos dress earlier, but I cannot tell you which area that applies to. Again, there is an extremely small amount of womens' clothing in the archaeological record. Most of it is in peices the size of stamps. That shows us the material and weave, and the picturestones show us some of how it was worn, but they are not very detailed pictures. The beads and brooches survive, which makes it possible for us to judge how things were held together and so on, and experimental archaeology can tell us a bit about what worked and what didn't, so really, what you see in that pic is a "best guess". There are differences in colour that is specific to geographic area - I'd have to look this up for you -but mostly it's to do with buying power. If you're rich, you can buy fancier material and fancier dyes. That applies to later times, as well. In Rome, it was only the higher up senators that were allowed purple at a certain time, and in northern Europe in the 1700's it was only the really rich that could afford wear blue. In the 1500's some colour were illegal for some people to wear. It all has to do with the expensive dyes, and this applies to the viking era, too. Brighter colours were loved and worn by those that could.
The folk costumes hail from anywhere between the 1700-mid 1900's and cannot be used as a guide to Iron Age garb.
Tyra
Member
Sorry, you posted while I posted...I'd say a bright colour that you like. Colours were not necessarily matching, but rather, each item was appreciated for its own beauty. Then they were put together, which means that it was not necessarily an apron dress that matched the under dress, but rather a beatiful aprondress with trim that was worn on top of your best under dress, regardless of if they went together or not. All trim should be displayed above the waist. Linnen, nettle, wool and even some silk are textiles that can be used, it's all in the specific weave techniques used, so for a painting, you need not worry about that. Linnen and nettle is a greyish colour when it is undyed, but both take well to dyes such as blue from woad, red from berries and all shades between green and yellow.
Siv would presumably be reasonably wealthy, so I'd say something bright. The woman in the pic is not wearing a wrinkled under dress. We don't know if those were used often or not, but for the same reason, I'd put a white wrinkled under dress on Siv. I have a difficult time thinking that the Osberg Queen would have one, but not one of our goddesses. I am wearing one in the pic that I posted, so you can see the white fabric sticking out there.
Tyra
Member
Oh, and disregard her hood. It is an item that is only correct for the very end period, after conversion, and then only in specific geographical areas. I have one, but I prefer to use a scarf, which is accurate for a longer period of pre- history and in a larger area, but even then, is thought to be something picked up by the heathen fashionistas under Christian influence!
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
about the hood, i had the sam thought. a few years ago, ive read a fiction book about a woman, at the bigining of middle age in france, that became a pope.. anyway. her mother, in the novel, was of a germanic tribe and her husband, a priest of some sort, would deny her at -any- moment to uncover her hair that she had shiny and luxurious. in his sermons he was mumbling that women's hair were the devil's net!
i always remembered that, and anyway, it would never have fit Sif, especially for the theme of my painting ^^
Blue, very expensive.. oh yeah i know that. you know, even up to 19th century, it was quite rare to see blue in paintings, because then all the pigments were natural and to create a deep blue, you needed expensive material, like lapis lazuli. then after, they started creating chemical painting, like acrilyc (what im using) and even today, the blue pots are still the most expensive.
I think then that blue would be fiting for Siv.
I was wondering, the brooches were wear in the front, but were there in the back too?
i always remembered that, and anyway, it would never have fit Sif, especially for the theme of my painting ^^
Blue, very expensive.. oh yeah i know that. you know, even up to 19th century, it was quite rare to see blue in paintings, because then all the pigments were natural and to create a deep blue, you needed expensive material, like lapis lazuli. then after, they started creating chemical painting, like acrilyc (what im using) and even today, the blue pots are still the most expensive.
I think then that blue would be fiting for Siv.
I was wondering, the brooches were wear in the front, but were there in the back too?
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
Tyra
Member
No, only on the front. Key would be necessary, since she's married, and probably a little strainer. We don't know what a woman's knife would have looked like. If it's for battle, I'd make it a shorter scramaseax, since a woman's hand is smaller than a man's.
Bates
Swamp Yankee
Seax for the win! Still working on my second one... this time I started with too large of stock instead of too small. Managed to forge the tang out fine, but the blade is being a bitch... maybe I should just give in and make it into a langsax, it'd probably be a lot simpler to draw it out that way.
Oh, and while I'm thinking about it... Is there any special significance to "red gold" in the sagas as opposed to regular gold? Or is it just poetic talking and/or translation wonkiness?
Oh, and while I'm thinking about it... Is there any special significance to "red gold" in the sagas as opposed to regular gold? Or is it just poetic talking and/or translation wonkiness?
Tyra
Member
Hmmm...dunno off hand. I'll have to look in the skaldskaparmal, 'cept for I'm leaving for a week tomorrow, so it might be a while. My first thought, though, is no. I don't remember any difference.
Erzebeth.Rouge
Member
