Vote: Royal Carnage 2006 March Madness Elite 8

[Conspicuously Absent]

Just to clarify, it wasn't my intention to insinuate that younger people don't appreciate Maiden, Metallica, etc.

Zod

I was clarifying that for you before IotS could jump in and freak out again.

 

[General Zod]

I was clarifying that for you before IotS could jump in and freak out again.

LOL. Thanks.

Zod

 

[Demilich]

Read it again, read what Zod said again, and maybe you will understand what i meant.

So:

After all, you can make the argument, that neither Maiden, Sabbath nor Metallica, have put out a decent disc is almost two decades (1988, "Seventh Son", "...and Justice for all").

You disrespected the opinions of anyone who agrees with the argument Zod proposes. To be truly accepting of others' opinions entails respecting them regardless of the extent to which they contravene your own.

Edit: to clarify it even further, I don't care what you meant by that disrespectful post. You said that you make it clear in your posts that you respect other peoples attitudes. I provided an example of a post where you didn't do that at all. And there are many more where similar things have been said.

I don't mind all that much that you do stuff like this. To be honest, I'm coming to expect it. Just don't think that if you say you don't do it, that means it doesn't happen.

 

[JayKeeley]

Actually, I'm always surprised at just how many people here listen to the 'old-school' stuff, considering out of 40 regulars, there are only 5 or so over the age of 30. That's just a reflection of good quality music.

 

[Demilich]

It could be a reflection of any number of things beyond that, JK, and you should know that!

 

[MetalNations]

Bracket #1
Ulver

Bracket #2
Black Sabbath

Bracket #3
Immortal

Bracket #4
Iron Maiden

 

[JayKeeley]

It could be a reflection of any number of things beyond that, JK, and you should know that!

Er, ok, how about:

"original music" = "more genuine"

Or,

genuine > formulaic / scripted

There is something to be said about authenticity, at least. I would have added this to the "OK GET IN HERE" thread but it's all about homo stuff now.

 

[Demilich]

Original music is more genuine TO YOU. Some people don't value originality as much as you do, and the fact that you have peepz to back you up on it around here doesn't make it anything more than an opinion.

As much as Sab/Maiden/'Tallica were original, they built directly on what came before them. In this sense, they're not that different than oh say ANY OTHER BAND EVER!?

And as my original point entailed: RC is a very selective environment, even among the online metal community. Certain kinds of people just don't make the cut around here. Making any kind of claim about the quality of certain bands or albums based on such a fragmented, limited pool of people wouldn't hold much water at all imo.

 

[General Zod]

Original music is more genuine TO YOU.

In the end, this may be a semantic argument, but I'm not certain I agree. Can you create something original and be disingenuous? My belief has always been, that originality is a direct outgrowth of being true to one's self, and doing what comes naturally. And to that end, originality would be predicated on being genuine.

Zod

 

[Conspicuously Absent]

I like breasts and iron maiden and metallica and vagina and some black sabbath and negura bunget. BEER! BUS! SLAYER!

 

[Demilich]

I guess the point is rather that originality is extremely subjective - One could go on for years thinking a band is the most original thing they've ever heard, then one day hear an earlier band and find them to be quite derivative. All depends on what you've heard.

Now, I'm not saying Metallica is such a band. Only that it's impossible to ascribe objective originality, so basing anything else on such a distinction is fruitless, because somebody with a different understanding will eventually come along and refute you.

At that point, you have the "I just don't understand how ____ could think differently than me and all these other ____s" or you have the "oh, I see that my understanding of things is just that, nothing more" angle, among others of course.

 

[JayKeeley]

Original music is more genuine TO YOU. Some people don't value originality as much as you do, and the fact that you have peepz to back you up on it around here doesn't make it anything more than an opinion.

Well, this aint the GMD right? The fact that I have people who share my opinions is exactly the reason why I'm here. It's a comfort zone. For gods sake, it's not like metal is this new found trend for me (or 99% of us here).

Note that Opeth17 posts here once every 8 weeks. He's an outsider looking in. He's brand new to metal, and has focused most of his time in one genre: death metal. It's the equivalent of some random stranger overhearing a conversation between lifelong friends and then butting in to say, "ugh, but you can't say this and you can't think that". Blah blah.

As much as Sab/Maiden/'Tallica were original, they built directly on what came before them. In this sense, they're not that different than oh say ANY OTHER BAND EVER!?

Come on man, use some logic here. There is a difference between bands plagiarising other bands and simply STAYING within the same sub-genre -- regardless of how accomplished they are with their level of mimicry -- compared to other bands (innovators) that took a previous style and turned it into something NEW and ORIGINAL.

And as my original point entailed: RC is a very selective environment, even among the online metal community. Certain kinds of people just don't make the cut around here. Making any kind of claim about the quality of certain bands or albums based on such a fragmented, limited pool of people wouldn't hold much water at all imo.

Yeah, but again, I don't think people come to RC because they're looking to find their way around metal. I think the profile of most here fits that of someone who's comfortable with what they like vs. what they don't like.

 

[lizard]

I think the profile of most here fits that of someone who's comfortable with what they like vs. what they don't like.

good point

 

[Demilich]

You've done nothing to refute anything I said, only draw attention away from it. You can sit there and appeal to logic and whatever you want all day, but it won't change the fact that there are going to be ALL kinds of people out there for whom your logic doesn't work, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to force my logic on you, but if you're going to ask these questions, be prepared to consider what comes of it.

We who come to RC share SOME opinions/musical interests/etc. That doesn't preclude any of the immense variety of opinions which might arise here. You can't say "METALLICA/PRIEST/MAIDEN/SABBATH">ALL and make that uncontested within RC just because that's what the regulars think. Well, you can, because this is your place, but please don't do all of us dissenters the disservice of trying to legitimize it.

edit: going to school now so I won't be able to answer anything after this until later in the evening. not that i expect much to come of it. i just hope it doesn't turn into a Popa Josh kinda situtation, because not only is that unnecessary, but it'd be pretty funny too.

 

[JayKeeley]

You've done nothing to refute anything I said, only draw attention away from it. You can sit there and appeal to logic and whatever you want all day, but it won't change the fact that there are going to be ALL kinds of people out there for whom your logic doesn't work, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to force my logic on you, but if you're going to ask these questions, be prepared to consider what comes of it.

We who come to RC share SOME opinions/musical interests/etc. That doesn't preclude any of the immense variety of opinions which might arise here. You can't say "METALLICA/PRIEST/MAIDEN/SABBATH">ALL and make that uncontested within RC just because that's what the regulars think. Well, you can, because this is your place, but please don't do all of us dissenters the disservice of trying to legitimize it.

edit: going to school now so I won't be able to answer anything after this until later in the evening. not that i expect much to come of it. i just hope it doesn't turn into a Popa Josh kinda situtation, because not only is that unnecessary, but it'd be pretty funny too.

Quite honestly, I really have no clue what you're talking about. The last paragraph really threw me off. "Papa Josh situation". What?

I'm not even sure where I've said "METALLICA/PRIEST/MAIDEN/SABBATH">ALL and make that uncontested within RC just because that's what the regulars think".

And I'm not even sure how I'm refuting anything that anyone is saying...garrgh. *pulls hair out*

 

[Demilich]

I pretty much got the same impression from your last post. "WHAT'S THIS GUY TRYING TO SAY!?"/ "HOW DOES THIS FOLLOW FROM WHAT I SAID?!"

I was rushing, 'cause I had to go to school. Then I got 10 minutes from home before deciding to come back for various reasons (it's a review lecture, the exam's in 3 days).

So, I'll look it over in a minute or something. I just get the impression that it's hard for you to understand people who honestly think differently than you about these bands. Why should they (not even necessarily me) have to explain themselves for that?

the "Papa Josh" thing was with respect to the whole misunderstanding/crazy thing that happened. didn't say it was going to happen or anything, just that i hoped it wouldn't. for some reason it seemed like it might have been going that way.

 

[General Zod]

I guess the point is rather that originality is extremely subjective - One could go on for years thinking a band is the most original thing they've ever heard, then one day hear an earlier band and find them to be quite derivative. All depends on what you've heard.

I see what you're saying, but that argument only holds water in the case of an individual who is completely cut off. If a person had no way to know what is and what isn't original, outside of their own expriences, they could make this mistake. But that's not the case. Between magazines, the net, chatting with people, etc., it's fairly easy to track down the source of a given sound or genre, and thus eliminate most of the subjectivity you speak of. It's not really subjective that Maiden, Metallica and Sabbath are all cornerstones of the genre.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

So, I'll look it over in a minute or something. I just get the impression that it's hard for you to understand people who honestly think differently than you about these bands.

That is just not true at all. If anything, all I'm asking people to do is share why such-and-such band is great. We've just spent the last 6 weeks doing the whole "recommendations" thread that everybody voted for. I'm the biggest advocate.

Why should they (not even necessarily me) have to explain themselves for that?

Are you serious?

If you went to see a movie last night, and you loved it, would you find it offensive if someone asked you why you loved it?

I mean, honestly, I feel like I'm explaining the art of conversation here.

 

[Demilich]

But even these popular representations of what's original don't entail a be-all-end-all. Originality may not even MEAN the same thing to different people, and this goes well beyond completely isolated individuals. I know this is all extremely hypothetical stuff, but it serves to illustrate the point that I keep coming back to: those classic bands that so many of us love aren't that special to some others, and their reasons for thinking this aren't going to be the easiest to comprehend, but would we want anyone dismissing our own opinion in the same manner?

 

[Demilich]

Are you serious?

If you went to see a movie last night, and you loved it, would you find it offensive if someone asked you why you loved it?

I mean, honestly, I feel like I'm explaining the art of conversation here.

I guess I was a little unclear. We can all talk about why we liked a movie, band, album, etc. without having to share an understanding of WHY we liked it. We can even discuss these differences as opposed to trying to create some kind of pseudo-science of originality/influence/creativity/etc.