what do you think is the greatest Metal album ever

[no country for old wainds]

"I refuse to believe that 1 + 1 = 2"

 

[USMC0341]

It's a toss up for me, but I have it narrowed down to 3 albums:

Iron Maiden - Powerslave
Slayer - Reign in Blood\South of Heaven (The timing of the release of Reign in Blood was better, but South of Heaven is a better album in my opinion)
Metallica - Master of Puppets

 

[Henrik Main]

"I refuse to believe that 1 + 1 = 2"

Er, no. That was not a good metaphor. 1+1=2 is a fact that easily can be proven. What Anonymousnick probably means is that all human beings are as much worth, and that no human beings are born with a bigger right to live and succeed than others. You may disagree with him (I do too), but we cannot prove that our views are correct and that his are not.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Er, no. That was not a good metaphor. 1+1=2 is a fact that easily can be proven. What Anonymousnick probably means is that all human beings are as much worth, and that no human beings are born with a bigger right to live and succeed than others. You may disagree with him (I do too), but we cannot prove that our views are correct and that his are not.

It's a fact that all people are not equal. I know Nick probably meant that people should have equal rights, rather than that they are exactly alike, but I felt like being picky.

I feel that it's illogical to give people equal rights when people quite blatantly aren't all equal.

 

[Demiurge]

I refuse to believe that all people are not equal.

Basic observation and understanding of "equal" tell you that Shaquille O'Neal isn't equal to Albert Einstein.

If you must, think of equality as interchangeability.

 

[polarity]

It has been proven that certain sound-progressions inspire certain things in every person's mind. This is proof enough that art isn't entirely subjective.

I'd like to see more information on this study, link? I highly doubt that it provided conclusive evidence. No study is without its faults. Also, in such a media-saturated society as the one we live in, it seems unlikely that it would be possible to prove anything of the sort.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Certain pieces of music inspire, let's say, sadness in everybody. This was true before the world became infested by media. You don't need a link to know that.

On a slightly relevant note, in high school I am taught that Major key means 'happy-sounding' and Minor key means 'sad-sounding'.

 

[polarity]

And how do you know that isn't a socialized reaction?

 

[no country for old wainds]

Well, that's irrelevant if it applies to everybody anyway.

I'll have a look for a link.

 

[polarity]

True, but as with any socialized reaction, it's not going to apply to everyone.

Regardless, I don't see what point this really makes anyway. We know that taste in music is subjective, because people like different music. If you're going to argue that musical quality is objective regardless of people's individual tastes, a framework for judging the quality of music has to be a established. What would you say that framework is?

 

[no country for old wainds]

True, but as with any socialized reaction, it's not going to apply to everyone.

Regardless, I don't see what point this really makes anyway. We know that taste in music is subjective, because people like different music. If you're going to argue that musical quality is objective regardless of people's individual tastes, a framework for judging the quality of music has to be a established. What would you say that framework is?

It seems to me that those with advanced knowledge of music theory, the development of metal, the ideologies presented and other such objective subjects - basically, the more advanced listeners, are more apt to creating a framework than those who are less advanced. I hate to say it for fear of the conversation declining, but Anus would be a decent example of an objectively accurate interpretation and analysation of metal. A "framework" or "template", if you will.

 

[polarity]

It seems to me that those with advanced knowledge of music theory, the development of metal, the ideologies presented and other such objective subjects - basically, the more advanced listeners, are more apt to creating a framework than those who are less advanced. I hate to say it for fear of the conversation declining, but Anus would be a decent example of an objectively accurate interpretation and analysation of metal. A "framework" or "template", if you will.

So what is that framework? How clearly the music conveys its ideas + the value of those ideas?

 

[no country for old wainds]

Basically, yes.

 

[polarity]

Well, I'll ignore whether the value of ideas is subjective or not (at least for now), seeing as that's a whole other debate. However, how clearly music conveys an idea is clearly subjective, as I will detail:

When creating music, the musician encodes ideas into abstract symbols. The meanings of these symbols are based on associations made from previous experience, and are hence always SUBJECTIVE. When the listener interprets music, they do so by decoding the abstract symbols into meanings using associations gained from previous experience, and hence the meanings they gain from the music are SUBJECTIVE. Because people have different experiences, the associations they make between symbol and meaning will not be the same; people will draw different meanings from the same piece of music.* Therefore, how well a piece of music conveys an idea is in no way an objective measure of quality.

You may want to read up on symbolic interactionism and semiotics.

EDIT: * Ironically, the idea that nothing can be communicated is a basic tenet of nihilism. I'm pretty sure ANUS has something to this effect somewhere on their site too. However, they don't apply it to music, of course .

 

[no country for old wainds]

I am under the impression that all humans share a particular mental attribute which allows some patterns of notes to inspire similar emotions in every single person. However, I haven't proved it.

Forgetting that for a second, art is always subject to interpretation, you're correct. But my point is that if a band is attempting to let's say, evoke the Pagan spirit in their music, they can only be doing it from knowledge gained via a secondary source. They were never actually THERE in Pagan times, they can only have studied. Therefore, people may have studied it similarly to the creator.

I'm really off the ball tonight, please inform me if any of that didn't make sense.

 

[USMC0341]

And...we ended up here by nominating best metal albums of all time...

And in regards to some of the prior posts in this thread - being racist about shit is not only ignorant, but fucking stupid and backward as well...

 

[no country for old wainds]

Also, music isn't entirely objective, I wasn't trying to say that, in case you thought I was.

And in regards to some of the prior posts in this thread - being racist about shit is not only ignorant, but fucking stupid and backward as well...

What about having pride in your own race?

 

[Naggamanteh]

What about having pride in your own race?

That is idiotic. Your race is not your own achievement, nothing to be proud of.

 

[polarity]

I am under the impression that all humans share a particular mental attribute which allows some patterns of notes to inspire similar emotions in every single person. However, I haven't proved it.

Can you name any piece of music which causes everyone to feel similar emotions? The closest thing is probably pop music, and, although I know you'd dismiss her regardless because of the ideological content, do you really think Britney Spears is a master of emotional manipulation?

Forgetting that for a second, art is always subject to interpretation, you're correct. But my point is that if a band is attempting to let's say, evoke the Pagan spirit in their music, they can only be doing it from knowledge gained via a secondary source. They were never actually THERE in Pagan times, they can only have studied. Therefore, people may have studied it similarly to the creator.

True, but that isn't objectivity. It's two people arriving at the same point, subjectively, as a result of making the same associations between symbol and meaning.

 

[no country for old wainds]

I'm off to play tennis, I'm sure this will continue later.