What the hell was Arch Enemy thinking???

[lurch70]

I would say that AOR is more "instant" than WOS. The songs on this new one are much more easy to get into from the first few listens.

Basically since Ravenous was such a big song for them, looks like they just took that formula and made it into a new record.

I agree that the songs on AOR are "simpler" but they sure as hell flow a lot better than some of their older material.

It will be interesting to see them on the Slayer tour. Still think that Slayer will walk all over them, especially since they will be doing RIB in it's entirety.

 

[J.]

ARCH ENEMY Singer Addresses Sellout Accusations: 'We Want To Bring Our Music To Everybody' - Sep. 1, 2003
ARCH ENEMY singer Angela Gossow recently spoke to Katie Vrabel of the Valley Advocate about accusations of sellout from some of the group's "fans," allegations that come with even modest success for an underground band. Of the band's "new" sound, which is really not far removed from their old, Gossow said, "People criticize, but, yeah, we are aiming for being more mainstream. We are aiming for some more money, because you have to live. I mean, I live in a super-small flat, sharing it with my little sister. I'm 28 — how long do I want to do this?

"People just complain when SLIPKNOT fans get into ARCH ENEMY, because they want to have this elitist thing, like: 'This is my band — I don't want to share it with nu-metal kids.' But we want to bring our music to everybody, and we want people to love the music, buy our albums and support the band. It doesn't mean we are turning into NICKELBACK. I haven't seen us on heavy rotation on MTV, so I guess we haven't really sold out that badly. People don't really see which way it goes. Either a band exists and they are going to need to make some money with it, or the band is not going to exist anymore."

Gossow joined ARCH ENEMY in time to record 2001's "Wages of Sin" but was not involved with the writing process. Things have changed dramatically since then, and ARCH ENEMY has just released a new album, "Anthems of Rebellion".

"I just joined right before 'Wages of Sin', so that wasn't really my music," said Gossow. "I liked it a lot, but I wasn't involved in the whole process, I didn't understand how the things came together, how this band was working. I found out later that this band wasn't really working together before I joined. They were like a project. They had been more like five individual people getting together to make some music and then running off to do their other projects, and now it's like it's a band, a good team. Everybody has got his job in the band and his place, and it works really well."

Three years, world tours, hundreds of shows and countless interviews later, Gossow says there is still the girl-in-a-band crap to deal with: "I hear the: 'Oh, they just got that chick in the band because it's a good gimmick thing,' but that doesn't work. If you are in a band like us, we tour we're going to play 250 shows. If it was a gimmick I would already be out of the band. Because it's tough, and not only for females. It's tough on everybody, and a lot of people leave bands because they can't stand touring. Here I've been in the band for three years, I'm working my ass off, I get sick on every fucking tour, I do it anyway. I've given up my job, my old life — I just moved for this band. I mean, how much more can you do for a band?"

----------------------------

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......sellouts.

I didn't know there were different degrees of sell-out status.

oh, and Angela IS a gimmick.

 

[Papa Josh]

No doubt, if she's worried about making more money, then tour your fucking ass off and sell some fucking merchandise. Or show your fucking tits and ass!!

She's not worried about "selling out a little" because she knows her flavor and time are about up.

Sharlee needs to say fuck this and start writing a new Mercyful Fate record w/ King and the boys...

Let those other two go get married, make mainstream shit and buy a big house so that she doesn't have to live in a flat with her sister.

God forbid, there are so called "free, liberated" people squandering in Iraq for electricity and water, poor, poor Angela...

Shit, I live in a two bedroom apartment, married with a child and three cats, but I know I have to work for it.

She CHOSE this life, she should at least maintain some integrity, judging from those words she doesn't want to work for it anymore... (please see T & A suggestion)

 

[JayKeeley]

No doubt, if she's worried about making more money, then tour your fucking ass off and sell some fucking merchandise.

I seriously doubt that anyone here can belittle the amount of touring AE does. Seriously, are they ever not on the road?

She's not worried about "selling out a little" because she knows her flavor and time are about up.

Their time is up? Aren't AE more popular now than ever? Isn't that the debate - because you know, god forbid someone make it popular enough to make a living out of being in a band....eek!

there are so called "free, liberated" people squandering in Iraq for electricity and water, poor, poor Angela...

So there are poor people in Africa too - does that mean we should lower our own expectations with what we can do with our lives? Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be rich than poor.

Shit, I live in a two bedroom apartment, married with a child and three cats, but I know I have to work for it.

So you have the choice of working at two movie theaters: Cinema A pays $100K per year, career prospects, security and benefits; and Cinema B pays $50K per year, and offers a free pretzel once a week. Which job do you choose?

She CHOSE this life, she should at least maintain some integrity

Since when did wanting to earn a living lack integrity? Nobody chooses to be broke - that's just common sense.

For the absolute fucking record, Angela Gossow (gimmick or not) DESTROYS Johan Livva - who could quite possibly be the worst thing about Arch Enemy pre Wages of Sin. But of course he'll never be given any harsher treatment because he has a pair of gonads...

..that's the saddest part of this all. Had Livva been replaced with a dude, none of this discussion would even be happening.

 

[J.]

I think Johan and Angela both suck. I wish the rumors would have been true that Arch Enemy's new vocalist was Jeff Walker. He makes both the AE vocalists sound like my diarreah(sp?) farts.

I cannot comment on AoR, as I have heard nothing from it, but WoS was boring upon first listen for me. I waited anxiously for that record (just ask Josh, I bought it from the store he worked at), and it was a big let down. THe Amott Bros are not the guitar virtuosos everyone likes to believe. But I want an AE fan to honestly tell me (fanboyishness aside) that Mike, Chris, Daniel and SHarlee didn't know that hiring a female singer would not help sales. If no one can tell me that, then Angela is a gimmick. Look at press photos, who is in the front? and who is in the back? Of course Angela is flanked by the guys, as if they are an afterthought. Instead of marketing the band as having two (supposed) guitar heroes and one of best bassists around and an ex-Eucharist member in the band, the label merely markets them as "that band with the female death metal singer".

As far as selling out, well, Angela makes that quite clear. They did.

 

[JayKeeley]

THe Amott Bros are not the guitar virtuosos everyone likes to believe.

Well, regardless of whether you like their music or not, I'd be surprised to hear other guitarists/musicians NOT show some level of respect for their playing abilities. They are indeed quite phenomenal to my ears - I wish I could play like that.

But I want an AE fan to honestly tell me (fanboyishness aside) that Mike, Chris, Daniel and SHarlee didn't know that hiring a female singer would not help sales. If no one can tell me that, then Angela is a gimmick.

Absolutey - this is show business! This is your hobby and their livelihood. If it's going to make them more money, and grab some attention, why wouldn't they do that? Hey, if you like the music, who gives a shit about a band's ethics and financial goals? I'm more concerned about bands promoting hatred and bigotry than trying to make a $, but I'll still listen to it all if the music is good.

Look at press photos, who is in the front? and who is in the back? Of course Angela is flanked by the guys, as if they are an afterthought.

Come on man, why lose sleep over this. To be completely objective about it, which band photos don't promote the lead singer in the middle and at the front? Very few you have to admit. In this case, the singer's blonde and attractive and so there's a nudge and a push.

Instead of marketing the band as having two (supposed) guitar heroes and one of best bassists around and an ex-Eucharist member in the band, the label merely markets them as "that band with the female death metal singer".

Good point. However, maybe it's me getting long in the tooth, but most fans I see at live shows in NY are somewhere between the ages of 18-24. I'd take a good guess and say that's the same age demographic for AE fans. So without them all being arduous fans of metal like yourself, most of these kids would never have even heard Carcass, Eucharist, or perhaps even Mercyful Fate. It's wasted marketing therefore.

As far as selling out, well, Angela makes that quite clear. They did.

I disagree, but even if they did, so what? Why does that bother you so personally? Better still, why not actually listen to AoR and just decide on whether you like the music or not. Feel free to read my review too - I touched on several points about the Angela hype even in the first paragraph.

 

[J.]

Well, regardless of whether you like their music or not, I'd be surprised to hear other guitarists/musicians NOT show some level of respect for their playing abilities. They are indeed quite phenomenal to my ears - I wish I could play like that.

Even in Armageddon, Chris has never really done much for me. I thought Mike's playing is Carcass was quite good, but easily overshadowed by Bill Steer. I've never been a big fan of solos, so take that as you will.

Absolutey - this is show business! This is your hobby and their livelihood. If it's going to make them more money, and grab some attention, why wouldn't they do that? Hey, if you like the music, who gives a shit about a band's ethics and financial goals? I'm more concerned about bands promoting hatred and bigotry than trying to make a $, but I'll still listen to it all if the music is good.

I just have a problem with metal bands intentionally trying to gain a buck. If you do it solely based on word-of-mouth and because your music is that damn good, then great (see early Black Sabbath). But if you intentionally try to garner more dinero by shoddy marketing and gimmicks, then I lose respect for you regardless of your musical prowess.

And I don't see metal as "show business". I see metal musicians as simply fans that started to play and are doing it strictly for fun, and because they just enjoy it. Hell, some bands actually owe money after releasing an album. To me "show business" means rock stars (AE?), and putting image, gimmicks, and the flashy live show ahead actually releasing quality music (see KISS, nu-metal)

Come on man, why lose sleep over this. To be completely objective about it, which band photos don't promote the lead singer in the middle and at the front? Very few you have to admit. In this case, the singer's blonde and attractive and so there's a nudge and a push.

I can name quite a few bands that don't promote any member above another. Hell, just the other day I found out which dude's in Neurosis actually play certain instruments, and I've been listening to them for years.

I'll admit, if a band has a female singer (Lacuna Coil, The Gathering, etc.) then that female is pushed to the forefront. BUT, the reasoning behind this irks me, which is to appeal to the horny, drooling teenager. Another example of shoddy (and mainstream "sex sells") marketing

Good point. However, maybe it's me getting long in the tooth, but most fans I see at live shows in NY are somewhere between the ages of 18-24. I'd take a good guess and say that's the same age demographic for AE fans. So without them all being arduous fans of metal like yourself, most of these kids would never have even heard Carcass, Eucharist, or perhaps even Mercyful Fate. It's wasted marketing therefore.

Fair enough.

I disagree, but even if they did, so what? Why does that bother you so personally? Better still, why not actually listen to AoR and just decide on whether you like the music or not. Feel free to read my review too - I touched on several points about the Angela hype even in the first paragraph.

It doesn't bother me personally, and I don't lose sleep over it. It bothers me that the band does this in such a blatant manner, and then has the gall to criticize the fans by calling them elitists when the fans call them out on it. And the fans are the ones that put them where they are in the first place. AE needs to understand, if you're going to act like rock stars, then you better get use to criticism.

 

[JayKeeley]

And I don't see metal as "show business".

Well, it is I'm afraid to say. Talk to labels, promoters, venue managers, marketers, journal advertising, distributors etc etc. Everyone takes a cut. I'm no expert, but it's no rocket science either.

I see metal musicians as simply fans that started to play and are doing it strictly for fun, and because they just enjoy it. Hell, some bands actually owe money after releasing an album.

But lets be real here. I think your comment is fair enough, but I just don't think we (as in we, the fans) have any right to judge a band's integrity because they want to be full time musicians who want to pay their mortgages, car payments, bills, kids schools etc - especially since we sit comfortably at our computer screens on a 9-5 regular salary.

I do think your point is valid if a band comes out from nowhere and is marketed in a certain way to gain instant fans without having really proved their worth (see mainstream, nuMetal etc). But with a band like AE, surely they've paid their dues by now. And for every band that decides to widen their audience, there are a million other bands that can barely even afford the train ride to the gig.

If most metal fans are indeed between the ages of 18-24, I'd like to see what they think of this idea of "selling out" when they're 33, married, got kids, a house in the suburbs, an SUV etc. I feel like an old man...

 

[lurch70]

From Blabbermouth:

ARCH ENEMY's 'Anthems' Becomes Fastest-Selling Album In History Of CENTURY MEDIA - Sep. 4, 2003
ARCH ENEMY's "Anthems Of Rebellion" CD has entered Billboard's Heatseekers Chart at No. 26, making it the most purchased album one week after release in the history of Century Media Records. The good news doesn't stop there: ARCH ENEMY are on the cover of the Terrorizer and Metal Maniacs. Alternative Press gave "Anthems Of Rebellion" a 5 out of 5 review, calling it "the best melodic death metal album of 2003… the kind of monster tracks most death metal bands only wish they could write." Kerrang! gave it a coveted 5 out of 5 Ks. "Anthems Of Rebellion" has also been the #1 album on the CMJ Loud Rock charts for two weeks in a row. In Europe, the album has charted in Greece (#1), in Finland (#42), in Germany (#69), Sweden (#76), and in the Netherlands (#97). The video for "We Will Rise" will debut on MTV2 and Fuse this week, and the band is currently on tour with HATE ETERNAL, EVERGREY, and BLACK DAHLIA MURDER. A European tour with NEVERMORE will kick off in mid-September.

Looks like all the hype paid off ...

 

[J.]

hahahaha...Alternative Press. Their idea of heavy music is Mudvayne. I'm curious to know how many "death metal" bands they've actually heard, other than the sweet and friendly Swedish sounding ones.

Kerrang....pfffffftttt

 

[JayKeeley]

I need to read that Terrorizer review...

EDIT: shit, I just noticed an article listed in this month's edition for "Japanese Cinema part II"....anyone subscribe or buy this magazine?

npearce, can you (or anyone) fill me in on the article please?

 

[Demonspell]

"The kind of monster tracks most death metal bands wish they could write"...LMAO. They were hardly capable of that on Stigmata, their best album IMO, let alone Anthems...

 

[Nate The Great]

I need to read that Terrorizer review...

EDIT: shit, I just noticed an article listed in this month's edition for "Japanese Cinema part II"....anyone subscribe or buy this magazine?

npearce, can you (or anyone) fill me in on the article please?

You'd love the last to issues of Terrorizer (#110 & #111). The have part 1 and 2 of Japanese Cinema in those issues. All I can say is that the Japs have some psycho stuff that I never knew was even legal. Gals cutting there on vaginas off and stuff.

Terrorizer hasn't reviewed AoR yet, but they have a big interview/article on them. It's pretty good, but the articles in Terrorizer are always excellent.

Try to hunt Terrorizer down.

 

[JayKeeley]

You'd love the last to issues of Terrorizer (#110 & #111). The have part 1 and 2 of Japanese Cinema in those issues.

Thanks man - I'll hunt them down at Barnes and Noble - otherwise I might take out a subscription and backorder these two issues. Russell and bloodfiredeath might be interested in these as well.

 

[JayKeeley]

By the way, if anyone else is reading this thread, check this out - pretty funny: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110108

 

[General Zod]

JayKeeley,

I have to say, you're about the only one making any sense in the thread.

Why is Angela a gimmick? Because she's attractive, because she's female, or both? I haven't had a chance to see AE live yet, but she kicks ass on CD. She's brutal, yet actually enuciates.

"Anthems" is an excellent CD. I'm not sure how anyone can say it's a "sell out". There are almost no clean vox on this disc. What band has crossed over and gone mainstream by using Death vocals alone? Relax people, this is hardly "Reroute to Remain".

The idea that the riffing is "simple" seems somewhat irrelevant. I suppose if you're a guitar player, who uses CDs to learn how to play, it might matter. But I listen to music because I like the sound. Not because of the chord progression or time signature in which it's played.

GZ

 

[J.]

JayKeeley,

I have to say, you're about the only one making any sense in the thread.

How is that? Because you agree with him?

Why is Angela a gimmick? Because she's attractive, because she's female, or both? I haven't had a chance to see AE live yet, but she kicks ass on CD. She's brutal, yet actually enuciates.

From earlier in this thread:

"But I want an AE fan to honestly tell me (fanboyishness aside) that Mike, Chris, Daniel and SHarlee didn't know that hiring a female singer would not help sales. If no one can tell me that, then Angela is a gimmick. Look at press photos, who is in the front? and who is in the back? Of course Angela is flanked by the guys, as if they are an afterthought. Instead of marketing the band as having two (supposed) guitar heroes and one of best bassists around and an ex-Eucharist member in the band, the label merely markets them as "that band with the female death metal singer".

I have seen the band live, and to be honest, barring the short length, the show was actually pretty good. However, I couldn't help but notice the crowd that gathered during AE's set, and then left before Nile showed AE how it's really done.

Many of the people in the AE crowd weren't even metal fans at all. How do I know? My g/f and I heard them complaining about Hate Eternal and how the vocals are crap. Yet, when Angela came out, all the "vocals are crap" nonsense went out the door. Why? It's not like Rutan's and Angela's vocals are vastly different. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys went out and bought AE's album simply because the singer is a female. If so, that would make her a gimmick. Much like people are infatuated with Slipknot and their masks, a lot of people give Arch Enemy the time of day because of Angela.

Seriously, their music is nothing new and can be heard by other, better bands.

"Anthems" is an excellent CD. I'm not sure how anyone can say it's a "sell out". There are almost no clean vox on this disc. What band has crossed over and gone mainstream by using Death vocals alone? Relax people, this is hardly "Reroute to Remain".

From earlier in the thread:

"...Gossow said, "People criticize, but, yeah, we are aiming for being more mainstream. We are aiming for some more money, because you have to live. I mean, I live in a super-small flat, sharing it with my little sister. I'm 28 — how long do I want to do this?"

"...so I guess we haven't really sold out that badly."

 

[General Zod]

How is that? Because you agree with him?

Yeah... pretty much.

"But I want an AE fan to honestly tell me (fanboyishness aside) that Mike, Chris, Daniel and SHarlee didn't know that hiring a female singer would not help sales. If no one can tell me that, then Angela is a gimmick.

Whether they did or whether they didn't doesn't necessarily make Angela a gimmick. What I'm not clear on is, who is buying the CDs, based on Angela's looks, that wasn't buying them previously?

Look at press photos, who is in the front? and who is in the back? Of course Angela is flanked by the guys, as if they are an afterthought. Instead of marketing the band as having two (supposed) guitar heroes and one of best bassists around and an ex-Eucharist member in the band, the label merely markets them as "that band with the female death metal singer".

First off, regardless of what the talent level is, the singer is the one in front 99% of the time. Second, these are press photos. All press photos are designed for one thing and one thing only; to make the band look cool. Finally, no one can tell how well you can play a guitar based on a press photo.

I have seen the band live, and to be honest, barring the short length, the show was actually pretty good. However, I couldn't help but notice the crowd that gathered during AE's set, and then left before Nile showed AE how it's really done.

Sorry, I would have left (after one or two songs) as well. A good number of folks, whose opinions I respect, loved "In their Darkened Shrines". But I just don't see what the attraction is to this band. Granted, I don't care for most "Brutal" Death, but I have heard other bands in this genre who I could at least see what the attraction is.

Many of the people in the AE crowd weren't even metal fans at all. How do I know? My g/f and I heard them complaining about Hate Eternal and how the vocals are crap. Yet, when Angela came out, all the "vocals are crap" nonsense went out the door. Why? It's not like Rutan's and Angela's vocals are vastly different.

First off, you're basing this on one or two comments you overheard. That's hardly representative of all current AE fans. Second, just because you think anyone who likes Rutan's vocals should also like Angela's vocals, doesn't make it so. To many people, all Death Metal singers sound alike. However, there are some I like, and some I think suck.

I wouldn't be surprised if these guys went out and bought AE's album simply because the singer is a female. If so, that would make her a gimmick.

No it doesn't. If someone went to see Steve Vai because he played that two neck heart-shaped guitar, would that make Stevie a gimmick? If tomorrow, MTV decided Nile was the coolest thing since Korn, and tons of folks started pouring into Nile concerts, would that make Nile a different band? No. Why people go to a show, has absolutely no bearing on the artist or their talents.

Much like people are infatuated with Slipknot and their masks, a lot of people give Arch Enemy the time of day because of Angela.

Once again, why people do what they do, has no bearing on Angela as a vocalist. It seems to me, that you're more hung up on the fact that she's an attractive female than any of the folks that you're condeming for it. You yourself said her vocals are no different than Rutan's. If that's so, than why is Angela a gimmick? Just because she's an attractive woman? No offense, but that's really lame.

Seriously, their music is nothing new and can be heard by other, better bands.

To each his own.

GZ

 

[J.]

I must not have explained myself well at all. I apologize.

To be honest, I really don't care that AE has a female in the band. It doesn't bother me in the least. What bothers me is the FACT that they exploit it for profit. That makes her a gimmick.

Bolt Thrower had a female bassist. Did they but her in tight clothing with the word "Diva" or "Princess" stretched across her tits for press photos? No they didn't.

And c'mon man, can you really sit there and say that some drooling horny pimply faced teen (or even 20 year old) didn't check out AE simply because he heard she's a female? It's obvious AE is joining the "sex sells" crowd.

And again, can you honestly tell me you believe that by hiring Angela, the four others in the band didn't know that sales would increase? Of course they knew, as did money grubbers Century Media.

Again, my beef isn't with Angela, it's with the way the band (and Angela seems to have no qualms with this), and the label are blatantly trying to cash in on the looks of AE's singer. What's next? Playboy?

I'm not saying she's a bad person or anything, but based on actions and comments (like the ones I quoted), she's obviously only after one thing, other than Mikey.

 

[General Zod]

Dreamlord,

I would have a problem with Angela or possibly even view her as a "gimmick', if she couldn't sing. But her vocals are as good as most in the melodic Death genre. Do I think that AE and CM are pleased with her appearance, and the fact that they may be able to market themselves in a way that they couldn't before? Sure. But that doesn't make her a "gimmick" in my eyes.

If a guy grows his hair long, maybe grows in a goatee, get's some cool tattoos, wears some leather pants, etc, we think nothing of it. He just looks "Metal". But in essence, he's trying to look cool, to cultivate an image he desires, one that will attract the opposite sex. If a woman in Metal does essentially the same thing, we often criticize her as trying to put style over substance or of trying to sell sex. In reality, we're probably being hypocritical to view these two people any differently.

GZ