Why do people take metal so seriously?

[no country for old wainds]

Escape into the music itself. Not into the 'scene'.

 

[Hell Mike]

no i wouldn't want to talk to you or "him" either, your both gay

your best bet would be the gay pubs downtown, you perverts just have to turn up to gigs and grope other men in the mosh pits don't u?

I don't like you. I don't go to pubs. I'm not gay. I don't 'mosh'. Where I live there aren't any pubs at all really, much less a gay one. If there is, though, I guess you'd know better than I do.

Sure, long hair and metal band t-shirts are important if you want to attract other 'metallers'. Then again, being anti-social is also part of the metal image. Heh.

I don't socialize with many, and of those very few are metalheads. When I go to places where I DO socialize (Like Wacken), I'd rather socialize with unholy black metallers than short-haired hippies and/or power metallers, but mostly I just get drunk and rude and pass out somewhere strange.

I don't consider myself a 'fanboy' either, because I do not care about the stuff you are mentioning (toiletpaper and such). The nearest I've gotten is drinking beer with some local metalheads in more or less known bands.

 

[The Sound Gardener]

I like metal, but I can't see how people can take it seriously. It's not sophisticated or anything.

Like jazz, or classical music, that's sophisticated. It's something that's generally repected by society. I will have to hide my metal CDs from my kids, and only show them my jazz and classical, because I've decided that I don't want them to think of their father as a noise junkie.

Does anyone else feel this way?

I don't agree with you. There's plenty of metal stuff that's not all blantant "noise." There's stuff like Opeth, maudlin of the Well/Kayo Dot, Katatonia, etc. that's plenty sophiscated and not just "noise" all the time. I wouldn't hide stuff like that from my kids. I'd encourage them to listen to it to try to broaden their musical horizons, and listen to some really thoughtful and emotive stuff.

 

[The Sound Gardener]

It is so wonderfully ironic that metal fans are by in large part of a cult or religion, when metal supposedly preaches an anti conformist message of by and large: individualism, anti religion, satanist, neo nazi, rage , anger, nihilism, death, etc etc. Even more ironic, is how horribly structured and technical alot of metal is, instead of having sort of a rebel musical style, we have one that is stagnating into a conformity of structure.

Yeah, I know all my friends and I who are "metalheads" love to go burn down churches and worship Satan every Saturday!!

You're just being retarded and stereotyping, and that doesn't add anything helpful to the conversation. If you took one look at me, you would not see one of your stereotyped "metalheads." You really couldn't figure out much except that I like sports.

That last part about the technicality of the music being hypocritical is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've read. Your whole "argument" is based on this massive stereotype that society (including yourself) created, just so you have something to grab onto when you talk about the scene so you look like you know what you're talking about, when, in reality, you have no idea.

 

[The Sound Gardener]

I think that the whole reason why people take stuff so seriously is that they start to like something, like metal or religion or whatever, and they take a lot of crap for liking it, which strengthens their liking for that certain thing, because they want to defend what they like. If people tell them that what they like sucks, then that person might in turn think that it does suck, and therefore he sucks, because he likes stuff that sucks, and then his self-esteem goes waaayyyy down. Perhaps people have a built-in mechanism in their brains to prevent a situation like that from happening, to keep some balance in their life.

 

[speed]

Ok SOundgardner, I have no idea what the hell kind of point you are making, other than i have overly stereotyped the metal scene. I may have gone a little too far in my generalization of metal fans, but if i go to a concert these are the fucks i meet; ones that live metal. These overly metal fucks are the ones out in the public displaying their metalness.

The real question about metal, is the one that was presented about whether metal can be taken seriously as a musical genre; does it add something of worth to culture, society, music. I think this question will be solved decades from now, but the current trend of popular metal leads one to believe metal will become essentially useless withing the field of music. Its doubtfull musicians and historians will unearth opeth and atheist.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

The real question about metal, is the one that was presented about whether metal can be taken seriously as a musical genre; does it add something of worth to culture, society, music. I think this question will be solved decades from now, but the current trend of popular metal leads one to believe metal will become essentially useless withing the field of music. Its doubtfull musicians and historians will unearth opeth and atheist.

Yes, it can be taken seriously. Now to the other question to the other questions:

does it add something of worth to culture, society, music.

I would say yes. Metal has transformed into a genre where one needs not only talent, but one needs to work and practice a lot to be able to perform it (something that can't be said about most mainstream music).

Its doubtfull musicians and historians will unearth opeth and atheist.

I'm thinking that metal will never get the recognition of so-called ''intellectuals'' because not only is the music can get pretty complex, but also metal is way too noisy (so to speak) for people to appreciate. Metal is like classical music and jazz to some extent, a lot of people hate classical and jazz because the music is way too complicated and doesn't have enough ''hooks'' to get them interested; as you may know, a lot of metal bands are generally a lot less catchy than mainstream music.

 

[Timmeth]

One word: perspective

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I don't agree with you. There's plenty of metal stuff that's not all blantant "noise." There's stuff like Opeth, maudlin of the Well/Kayo Dot, Katatonia, etc. that's plenty sophiscated and not just "noise" all the time. I wouldn't hide stuff like that from my kids. I'd encourage them to listen to it to try to broaden their musical horizons, and listen to some really thoughtful and emotive stuff.

Heh, cool name...

I understand that you disagree. I just hope you realize that Opeth, motw, Kaya Dot, Katatonia, even Cynic, are examples of bands that use only metal elements in their music? They're not technically metal bands. Opeth are folk/prog/jazz half the time, same for motw and Kaya Dot. Katatonia's like doom/goth I think, and Cynic were half jazz. The death in their sound was an experiment, almost. An influence from working with Chuck Schuldiner.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Metal bands are unsophisticated. Even those bands you mentioned are unsophisticated. They might seem sophisticated, but it's because they seem to be trying to break out of the mold of what metal is.

Someone mentioned that jazz was initially spurned. True.

But if you say that Kind Of Blue or My Favorite things are unsophisticated albums, no one will believe you. Jazz took thirty or so years to get going, and even longer for the true geniuses to challenge thier listeners. With jazz, the music didn't have to be pop bullshit to be appreciated by the masses. It just had to be good. Examples: "Take Five," "Desafinado," "My Favorite Things." Truly sophisticated music is something that almost everyone can enjoy except those who HAVE to be different.

I doubt Opeth have that cross-pollinating ability. It has nothing to do with the music being inaccessible. A Love Supreme by Coltrane was a very sophisticated and popular album. It's hardly what I call accessible. Stravinsky's Firebird is a dark, moody, almost evil piece with loads of dissonance, atonal harmonics, and weird time signatures. It's a masterpiece, and quite sophisticated. There's so much theory and craftmanship. And that is all lost the second you distort a guitar and yell or growl. Sorry.

Metal is my favorite type of music. However, I have accepted the fact that it is unsophisticated.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Truly sophisticated music is something that almost everyone can enjoy except those who HAVE to be different.

Not true. A lot of people hate classical music and by your logic that would mean that classical music is not sophisticated. Also, pop music is music that almost everyone can enjoy and saying that pop music is sophisticated is plain ludicrous.

Metal is my favorite type of music. However, I have accepted the fact that it is unsophisticated.

Ok, now you're going a little too far. That's not a fact by any means and that has been discussed to death already. Either way, you have your opinion and I respect it.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Not true. A lot of people hate classical music and by your logic that would mean that classical music is not sophisticated. Also, pop music is music that almost everyone can enjoy and saying that pop music is sophisticated is plain ludicrous.

Yeah, looking back on that statement does make me feel stupid. I was thinking in the time period. Back when popularity still meant good. That stopped right after the Beatles got huge. Coincidence, I'm sure, but that's how it is.

Oh, to back myself up, how about this: I love Norah Jones, but she isn't sophisticated either. Not compared to Ellington or Thelonious Monk or Coltrane and Davis.

Ok, now you're going a little too far. That's not a fact by any means and that has been discussed to death already. Either way, you have your opinion and I respect it.

I know, I know, and I'm glad you respect my opinion. I'm not gonna say I don't respect your opinion--it's just that you didn't really prove it. I haven't checked out Arcane Sun yet, but I've worked so hard to put my feelings into words. If someone could please tell me how metal itself is sophisticated, I'll believe it.

I want to be proved wrong here.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

You're the first person i've seen that wants to be proved wrong on a subject Although I feel that this is not an important subject, let's discuss it. Let's use your definition:

1. not naive; worldly-wise

Ok; in order to prove your opinion tell me how metal is naive (note: i'll admit that a lot of metal shows a lot of stupidity in their lyrics, so i'll give you that)

2. appealing to cultivated tastes

Like I said before, every person that knows a lot about a particular style of music has cultivated tastes. In the end this is pretty much irrelevant.

3. complex; intricate

I think we agree that there are plenty of bands that plays pretty complicated music.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Okay...

btw, this is the big difference between me and Demiurge.

My definition of cultivated says "developed or improved by education or training." Discuss.

And it's been shown that much of metal is naive. Or just idiotic as far as lyrics go.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Oh and btw, something came into my mind right now. What if we took the distortion out of the music, would that make them sophisticated? (i'm talking about metal bands that play at least fairly complex music)

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Damn, you're fast.

Ummm...fairly complex metal bands without distortion. Hmmm...

What would that sound like? It would cut down on the noise, but I doubt it would make it any better. Nirvana weren't any more sophisticated after playing unplugged. Just more respected due to their ability to do something like that. When Alanis or Alice In Chains played unplugged, it came off as poignant, not sophisticated.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Okay...

btw, this is the big difference between me and Demiurge.

My definition of cultivated says "developed or improved by education or training." Discuss.

Going back to the definition of sophisticated you will find that it says ''appealing to cultivated tastes''. Like I said, anyone that has educated himself on a particular style of music has a cultivated taste because he has taken the time to learn things about that style of music. Let's look at the bigger picture here; the way that definition is portrayed (cultivated), it seems that they are implying that people who take the time to learn things about music will tend to like a certain type of music (a superior type of music) and as you may know, there's no superior type of music as far as taste goes. Some people may change their taste when they learn the technical aspects of music, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they've improved their taste. Why? because taste is entirely subjective.

And it's been shown that much of metal is naive. Or just idiotic as far as lyrics go.

And I don't disagree, but does that prove that the whole genre is idiotic as far as lyrics go? I don't think so.

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

Damn, you're fast.

Ummm...fairly complex metal bands without distortion. Hmmm...

What would that sound like? It would cut down on the noise, but I doubt it would make it any better. Nirvana weren't any more sophisticated after playing unplugged. Just more respected due to their ability to do something like that. When Alanis or Alice In Chains played unplugged, it came off as poignant, not sophisticated.

I understand what you mean, but that's not my point. If I recall well your main point is that metal is not sophisticated because it's too ''noisy'', right? Well, take a fairly complex metal band and turn the distortion off. Are they sophisticated now?

 

[The Sound Gardener]

Heh, cool name...

I understand that you disagree. I just hope you realize that Opeth, motw, Kaya Dot, Katatonia, even Cynic, are examples of bands that use only metal elements in their music? They're not technically metal bands. Opeth are folk/prog/jazz half the time, same for motw and Kaya Dot. Katatonia's like doom/goth I think, and Cynic were half jazz. The death in their sound was an experiment, almost. An influence from working with Chuck Schuldiner.

Thanks. Anyway, the extent to which something is considered "sophisticated" varies from person to person. Some rich person who toils in luxury and eats only the finest foods, drives the finest cars, etc. might consider something unsophisticated when comparing that thing with their lifestyle, whereas someone considered less "sophiscated" by society, i.e. the Average Joe might consider that thing godly and super-sophisticated to the max. It really all depends on a person's view of that thing. For example, that rich person might consider Kayo Dot to be just noisy crap, and instead they would put on Beethoven's 5th, or something like that, something "sophisticated" in their eyes. The Average Joe might listen to it and say that it's the most awesome, cool, sophiscated thing he's ever heard.

You could also make the argument that those bands you (and I) listed are metal bands with elements of jazz, goth, etc. and not the other way around. If they're half whatever that also means that the other half is metal.

 

[Timmeth]

Yeah, let me reiterate...

Perspective