Why do people take metal so seriously?

[The Sound Gardener]

Ok SOundgardner, I have no idea what the hell kind of point you are making, other than i have overly stereotyped the metal scene. I may have gone a little too far in my generalization of metal fans, but if i go to a concert these are the fucks i meet; ones that live metal. These overly metal fucks are the ones out in the public displaying their metalness.

The real question about metal, is the one that was presented about whether metal can be taken seriously as a musical genre; does it add something of worth to culture, society, music. I think this question will be solved decades from now, but the current trend of popular metal leads one to believe metal will become essentially useless withing the field of music. Its doubtfull musicians and historians will unearth opeth and atheist.

The "fucks" you meet at those concerts don't compose the entire population, let alone the entire metal population. They are only a small minority of the population. Not everybody feels that way about metal.

Again, with that second paragraph, you're oversimplifying. Not all "popular" metal is crap. The whole field of what you call popular metal doesn't even come close to constituting the entire field of metal, whether it be underground or "popular" or whatever.

The idea of the question being solved years from now is pretty strange. I think when the Beatles, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, etc. were at the top of their game (hell, all the time), they were taken pretty seriously. Even though Sabbath and Zeppelin dabbled in withcraft and all that tomfoolery, it didn't really have an impact. I realize now that the (lyric) content of many bands have taken it to the extreme now, it's the same impact and "shock" that Zeppelin and Sabbath had back in their time. Anyway, I don't think the artists really care if they are taken seriously. I know i'm being cliche, but they do it for the music and themselves. I realize several notable bands have sold out, but a large majority of the bands don't care about making millions and selling millions.

I recognize that have gone somewhat off-topic from the original question asked, but if Speed can do it, so can I.

 

[SADUDE]

I just want to say that jazz and classical has artists that could be considered pop. Many jazz listeners might consider the big band era itself to be so. It appealed to the majority with more hooks. I would straight out call vivaldi the brittney spears of classical. He is like the slipknot of metal. Not quite there yet, but a transition to the world of classical. I like some of his stuff, and true maybe the pop music that he plays is more complicated than say the pop of today. Listen to the modern Russian classical and tell me otherwise. You may say that I am taking that completely out of its element. I mean the baroque era is seperated from the Russain by like two hundred and fifty years. But vivaldi is the same compared to even his baroque colleagues such as Bach. It is all perspective. Metal like classical or even jazz is impossible to discuss as a whole because of the vast differences between genres. I am not going to do a genre debate...Im stopping here.

 

[Giles]

Well this is quite the weighty thread isn't it now.

Hmm.... Too many philsophers spoil the broth and all that, I think that by trying to reach "middle ground" as it were this discussion is confusing itself.

At the end of the day, the music, the "metal scene," levels of sophistication, other music and everything else all comes down to the individual, the person - or persons - who hear it. Play a dozen people a song and they'll be a dozen different interpretations of it.

 

[Corporal McDick]

The bottom line is that it all narrows to personal taste, and normal self opinionated ppl listen to what they like.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Metal is my favorite type of music. However, I have accepted the fact that it is unsophisticated.

It isn't a fact. You just can't hear the sophistication.

 

[speed]

SOund Gardener how specific am i to write from now on? SHould i write a research paper or dissertation on metal culture? These arguments and discussions are going to be general as a rule. These are merely thoughts and ideas being discussed, argued etc.

Quite frankly, I still do not find any point in your replies, and i wonder why i have even bothered taking the time to reply.

 

[Timmeth]

I have a question...

How do we determine sophistication?

 

[Ultimate_Symphony]

I have a question...

How do we determine sophistication?

There are two definitions posted in this thread, haven't you read them?

 

[anonymousnick2001]

It isn't a fact. You just can't hear the sophistication.

I choose NOT to interpret that as a shot at me.

Can you hear this sophistication? Describe it to me, if you can.

I think Ultimate Symphony and The Sound Gardener both made excellent points. And Timmeth said it best. Perspective. And SADUDE also mentioned how classical has its pop artists and stuff(I consider big band to be swing, not jazz--a seemingly slight but major difference).

Thanks, guys. But here's the topper:

Does metal have to be sophisticated? I mean, who cares? Besides me, that is. Everyone scrambled to prove that metal was sophisticated, because that is interpreted as an inherently good thing. Because--it's human nature to worry about others' perspectives, regardless of how 'n3cr0' or 'individual' you are. I don't think it should matter if metal is or isn't sophisticated(I honestly don't know anymore--if my kids have a propensity for it, I'll come out of the closet with my metal collection and show them dear old Dad is cooler than they thought--if not, *whistle, whistle* *shuts attic door and locks it*).

If I somehow proved metal to be unsophisticated, would anyone give two shits and a fuck? Would anyone redefine their musical taste? I doubt anyone is THAT shallow.

See where I'm going with this? I showed why it mattered to me. Why does it matter to all of you?

 

[no country for old wainds]

I choose NOT to interpret that as a shot at me.

It wasn't one, don't worry.

Can you hear this sophistication? Describe it to me, if you can.

I can't describe it (should be able to one day), I believe that I can hear it though. I see your point, I know that metal seems unsophisticated, I'm just saying that I'm sure it isn't true for every band. In a way though, you were correct, because most 'sophisticated' metal bands incorporate classical elements into their music. But it is still metal, far more than it is classical music, so I still stand by my point.

If I somehow proved metal to be unsophisticated, would anyone give two shits and a fuck? Would anyone redefine their musical taste? I doubt anyone is THAT shallow.

Some might think of sophistication as well-spoken people in suits, discussing classical music intellectually over a fine glass of expensive wine. Of course metal isn't going to be sophisticated in that case. Some may think it's purely about technical ability, in which case some metal is very much sophisticated. (For the record, I'm talking about neither of these things when I use the word) At the end of the day it's such a loose term, and we all doubtlessly have our own view of what 'sophistication' is in music. Perhaps without sophistication, some metal would sound very shitty. Perhaps not. Depends on your definition of the word as much as anything. I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.

 

[Corporal McDick]

It wasn't one, don't worry.


I can't describe it (should be able to one day), I believe that I can hear it though. I see your point, I know that metal seems unsophisticated, I'm just saying that I'm sure it isn't true for every band. In a way though, you were correct, because most 'sophisticated' metal bands incorporate classical elements into their music. But it is still metal, far more than it is classical music, so I still stand by my point.


Some might think of sophistication as well-spoken people in suits, discussing classical music intellectually over a fine glass of expensive wine. Of course metal isn't going to be sophisticated in that case. Some may think it's purely about technical ability, in which case some metal is very much sophisticated. (For the record, I'm talking about neither of these things when I use the word) At the end of the day it's such a loose term, and we all doubtlessly have our own view of what 'sophistication' is in music. Perhaps without sophistication, some metal would sound very shitty. Perhaps not. Depends on your definition of the word as much as anything. I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.

Sophisticated is sometimes what is not simple. And sometimes simplicity is what makes it so sophisticated...
If to compare say.... a riff by Linkin Park and Death, I think Death wins the sophistication award. Sophistication is something, a 1/16 of a note, that pops in a place you didnt expect and leads to harmony. I found a place or two of such in songs like "Scavenger of Human Sorrow" and "Spirit Crusher" for instance. Death is just for example. I'm sure there are more examples of such, if anyone has my point.
However there is a difference in comprehension between musicians and non-musicians. They hear differently things.

 

[Under The Oak]

No music genre is better than another. Everyone obviously has different tastes and definitions of talent, so just because someone doesn't like a particular style doesn't mean it sucks or is talentless. I used to arrogantly say that same thing, but I learned that music is non-conformist and appeals to many people on many different levels. It is pointless to debate this issue since we all feel differently about certain aspects of life, such as whether music should be taken seriously or not. It's apparent that there is some music that is not meant to be taken seriously though, such as Frank Zappa, Blink 182, Anal Blast, Gwar, etc, etc.

Personally, I take music seriously because it can be used to convey emotion. Just as poetry and literature are taken seriously because they express important and applicable concepts, I believe some music should also be treated seriously. It is an art form, whether you like it or not, and art can be interpretted in different ways - some can be serious and thought-provoking, while others can just be for fun or parody.

 

[no country for old wainds]

No music genre is better than another. Everyone obviously has different tastes and definitions of talent, so just because someone doesn't like a particular style doesn't mean it sucks or is talentless.

Some would argue that people aren't equal, therefore their opinions aren't equally valid.

 

[Timmeth]

Personally, I take music seriously because it can be used to convey emotion. Just as poetry and literature are taken seriously because they express important and applicable concepts, I believe some music should also be treated seriously. It is an art form, whether you like it or not, and art can be interpretted in different ways - some can be serious and thought-provoking, while others can just be for fun or parody.

Exactly how I feel, "sophisticated" or not.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Same with me.

 

[andrew_plamondon]

I thought yesterday that if something has to be lessa natural to be called sophisticated, then, according to this definition, techno music is probably the most sophisticated of all music !! All those computer beats and voice effets make, I guess, techno and dance or any music that sounds like it the most sophisticated.
Maybe "sophisticated" wasn't the right choice.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I don't think the term "natural" appeared at any point.

Some might think of sophistication as well-spoken people in suits, discussing classical music intellectually over a fine glass of expensive wine. Of course metal isn't going to be sophisticated in that case. Some may think it's purely about technical ability, in which case some metal is very much sophisticated. (For the record, I'm talking about neither of these things when I use the word) At the end of the day it's such a loose term, and we all doubtlessly have our own view of what 'sophistication' is in music. Perhaps without sophistication, some metal would sound very shitty. Perhaps not. Depends on your definition of the word as much as anything. I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.

Good point. Very good, point. And hey, it might not be going anywhere, but I'm still getting a lot out of it.

 

[speed]

This thread has caused me to reevaluate whether complex sophisticated music, is of more or lesser value as more simplistic and harmonius music.What do you guys think? Look at classical and jazz, the more sophisticated- the less people care or even listen to the music.

 

[clangorous]

This thread has caused me to reevaluate whether complex sophisticated music, is of more or lesser value as more simplistic and harmonius music.What do you guys think? Look at classical and jazz, the more sophisticated- the less people care or even listen to the music.

Totally agree with you !!! i never listen to any particular type of music continuosly, i get bored very easily, i keep switching between different Genres.Same with classical or Jazz also , too much of it will get me psyched,
it all depends on the mood for me :Smokedev:

 

[Freanan]

7 Pages and i still have not reached the end of this thread.
I am going to post now!

About the 'sophistication' thing:
I think in your opinion social acceptance is MUCH to high rated as a factor of sophistication! Sorry, but i think is ridiculous to think music is sophisticated, only because your mothe rlikes it or because it is played at cocktail partys! Don't you have an OWN opinion?
Let me use an example: Someone said before, a Metal Song would never be as sophisticated as a John Lennon Song. But the beatles, who are praised as great artists today, who almost have a classical aura, whose songs are listened by todays old people, were seen as silly youth-music in the past. The beetles were nothing more than pop music too - very influential, original and indeed sophisticated pop music, but not more sophisticated than some Metal bands.
I think if you look at the ideological sophistication, the Beetles and Metal are pretty much the same: Rebellious young people. First they just make music to scare theyr parents or too feel cool, later they discover budhism (or as a paralell in metal satanism OR nihilism OR paganism (...)), become more sophisticated and so on.
And more important: The Beatles became social accepted, because the young rebels became old managers and lawyers. This won't happen to Metal, because Metal is not that widespread, it is just a subculture, not the whole youth-culture.
But that does not matter, because social acceptance has nothing to do with quality and sophistication.
What is sophistication?
For me it has neither much to do with social acceptance nor with technical abilities. I think highly technical, intricate complex metal is not more sophisticated than some ultra-primitive Black Metal that was recorded in the woods. But both are more sophisticated to me, than ... Britney Spears for example. Why?
Now this is leads to my definition of sophistication:
Sophisticated music is music that was made for people who are interrested in digesting it and thinking about it, even if they don't like it the first time. It is music with which the artist or musicians wants to express somthing. This is my main point. Intelligent or sophisticated music, or let's just say ART, is expression.
It does not matter, if one expresses, hatred, some silly ideology, some intelligent ideology, feelings, but it has to be serious, the artist has to have ideals and has to mean what he expresses.
Back to my example:
The beatles were in the beginning nothing more than rebellous children, but theyr ideals were honest, they expressed theyr feelings in life and so on. That's why today they are called sophisticated by someone on this forum.
Also the mentioned primitive Black Metal is sophisticated. No matter if i or you think it is silly (I don't think so in most cases), these people are artists for me, because they believe in it.