your opinion on bands with hateful messages

[Krigloch the Furious]

Lyrics about girls and relationships - when done well - can be pretty cool, Agalloch's entire album Pale Folklore is based upon a failed relationship of 2 years - the lyrics are really quite well done.

emo

 

[Mort Divine]

emo

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I really fail to see how Agalloch are "wussy", beyond Pale Folklore at the very least (which even then I'd have to laugh because it is such a stupid and meatheaded thing to think that expressing ones feelings about a failed relationship is wussy.)

Seems an appropriate use of the term to me. At the very least, it certainly isn't what I listen to music (especially metal) for.

Sure the music is made with sadness and melancholy in mind - but take The Mantle for example, it is largely based upon Cherokee folklore (a culture I doubt anyone would call "wussy") and Ashes follows suite with the folklore based lyrics and what not -

Each night I lay
Awakened by her shivering silent voice
From the shapes in the corridor walls.
It pierces the solitude like that of a distant scream
In the pitch-black forest of my delusion

With each passing day, a deeper grave

"Why did you leave me to die?"
"Why did you abandon me?"
"Why did you walk away and leave me bitterly yearning?"

I don't know, that seems to lean more towards "wussy" than "Cherokee folklore."

I don't think that anyone was talking about music contextually, but rather per se. In and of itself, music is neutral, and words are neutral, until a meaning is constructed out of them.

And I wouldn't call it "selective perception" to be able to listen to bands that promote ideals that you oppose, as I'm fully aware and perceptive of those ideals. I just appreciate it for what it is and the conviction through which it is expressed.

I said I had no problem appreciating it, I had a problem with the enjoyment part.

It is selective perception in the sense that the parts of the art that would create dissonance and displeasure for the listener are ignored for the sake of enjoyment/entertainment.

 

[Mort Divine]

Seems an appropriate use of the term to me. At the very least, it certainly isn't what I listen to music (especially metal) for.



Each night I lay
Awakened by her shivering silent voice
From the shapes in the corridor walls.
It pierces the solitude like that of a distant scream
In the pitch-black forest of my delusion

With each passing day, a deeper grave

"Why did you leave me to die?"
"Why did you abandon me?"
"Why did you walk away and leave me bitterly yearning?"

I don't know, that seems to lean more towards "wussy" than "Cherokee folklore."

I just find it so funny, bordering on callous and machobullshit, for one to reject a band simply because they - mind you not in a OMG LAWL MY GIRLFRIEND LEFT ME AFTER 2 DAYS I GO CRY way - are expressing their feelings through their music, is that not the point of music really - to express emotion in an aural way? I can't help but scoff at people who think in such ways, when a person has a legitimate reason to express pain or sorrow and they just laugh or look down upon them. Not everyone can be as sealed up as the world expects them to be.

I don't know the specifics really behind The Mantle and the lyrical themes of inspiration, but I do recall reading an interview with John saying that it was based upon Cherokee folklore (and there is the

"Earth is floating on the waters like an island,
Hanging from four rawhide ropes
Fastened at the top of the Sacred four directions.
The ropes are tied to the ceiling of the sky,
When the ropes break, this world will come
Tumbling down and all living things will fall with it and die

section from ...And The Great Cold Death Of The Earth which is a Cherokee proverb, so I think that your analysis of it may just be a tad too "surface."

 

[Mythos Inibri]

i like hateful lyrics

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I just find it so funny, bordering on callous and machobullshit, for one to reject a band simply because they - mind you not in a OMG LAWL MY GIRLFRIEND LEFT ME AFTER 2 DAYS I GO CRY way - are expressing their feelings through their music, is that not the point of music really - to express emotion in an aural way? I can't help but scoff at people who think in such ways, when a person has a legitimate reason to express pain or sorrow and they just laugh or look down upon them. Not everyone can be as sealed up as the world expects them to be.

I don't listen to music to hear other people cry about relationships. I find it banal and juvenile. Dressing it up with flowery descriptions like "bitterly yearning" doesn't help. Am I supposed to drop everything and enjoy it because the "pain and sorrow" is "legitimate"?

I don't know the specifics really behind The Mantle and the lyrical themes of inspiration, but I do recall reading an interview with John saying that it was based upon Cherokee folklore (and there is the section from ...And The Great Cold Death Of The Earth which is a Cherokee proverb, so I think that your analysis of it may just be a tad too "surface."

So it's wussy themes in a Cherokee folklore setting. And I had my fill of such proverbs in high school; they didn't spark my imagination to the extent that they cancel out the rest of the Agalloch package that disagrees with me.

I'm not ignoring it though. During the listening of a piece, my ideals and beliefs are not in the forefront of my mind to begin with. When I'm listening to something and it says "death the Christians," I'm not thinking "hey, while I am not a fan of the religious beliefs of Christianity as a whole, I generally do not have a problem with the average Christian, nor do I believe that anyone should be put to death." If I have any conscious moral reaction, it is more one of bemusement than disgust. Differing views in general do not bother me a great deal in general, I don't get 'displeasure' by the fact that somebody else hates Jews. I'm honestly not entirely sure why you're associating conflicting opinions with displeasure or some sort of cognitive dissonance, because that is not the way that I perceive it at all. I take it for what it is in itself and not in relation to me. I am more of the persuasion of objectivity in art rather than personal connection. I view art as an outside observer and not an active participant.

^incohesive rambling that doesn't properly convey what I'm trying to say but too lazy and pressed for time at the moment

The selective perception comes into play when there is an actual conflict, not "hey, this band wants to kill Jews and I only hold a mild distaste for them!" but "hey, this band wants to kill Jews while I am a card carrying member of the ADL!". The former can probably get plenty of enjoyment from the music, the latter faces a troubling contradiction if he finds himself listening to the band for entertainment - unless he ignores the parts that offend him and adapts a "just the music" perspective.

 

[Mort Divine]

I don't listen to music to hear other people cry about relationships. I find it banal and juvenile. Dressing it up with flowery descriptions like "bitterly yearning" doesn't help. Am I supposed to drop everything and enjoy it because the "pain and sorrow" is "legitimate"?


So it's wussy themes in a Cherokee folklore setting. And I had my fill of such proverbs in high school; they didn't spark my imagination to the extent that they cancel out the rest of the Agalloch package that disagrees with me.

No, but to simply write it off as wussy is frankly laughable. Sure the end of a relationship may not be the end of the world but that doesn't change that it does hurt - and that "pain" can spark a creative flair in someone. Anti-Christian lyrics are ridiculously banal and juvenile for the most part, yet I complain not. I think in a sense - you hold yourself to far too high a standard.

 

[ohiogrinder]

Just imagine a band calling Odin a wuss, suggesting that everyone should be a gay Christian, and demanding that all guns be destroyed and heathens put to death.

I'd actually find that to be funny.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

No, but to simply write it off as wussy is frankly laughable. Sure the end of a relationship may not be the end of the world but that doesn't change that it does hurt - and that "pain" can spark a creative flair in someone.

So? Is some level of creative delivery supposed to change my personality so that I suddenly enjoy listening to relationship metal?

Anti-Christian lyrics are ridiculously banal and juvenile for the most part, yet I complain not.

Perhaps, although I was using those adjectives to refer to the themes themselves, not the lyrics that may be used to convey them.

I think in a sense - you hold yourself to far too high a standard.

My only standard is that I prefer to listen to music that I can enjoy and identify with.

 

[ohiogrinder]

Sometimes I avoid bands with lyrics that offend me.

yeah, you better avoid Anal Cunt...

 

[Hatebreeder]

yeah, you better avoid Anal Cunt...

You should avoid them even if you aren't offended by their lyrics.

 

[ohiogrinder]

You should avoid them even if you aren't offended by their lyrics.

I was making a gay joke at Blue Jay's expense...thanks for ruining it asshole!:Smug:

 

[Hatebreeder]

I was making a gay joke at Blue Jay's expense...thanks for ruining it asshole!:Smug:

Anal Cunt isn't really that offensive, though. They strike me as more stupidly irreverent, kinda like frat boys.

 

[Mort Divine]

So? Is some level of creative delivery supposed to change my personality so that I suddenly enjoy listening to relationship metal?


Perhaps, although I was using those adjectives to refer to the themes themselves, not the lyrics that may be used to convey them.


My only standard is that I prefer to listen to music that I can enjoy and identify with.

Yes and no.

If something is dealt with in a skillfully done way, then it shouldn't matter if it is about relationships - all that should matter is the execution.

Perhaps - but my post could also apply to general anti-Christian themes as well.

Getting enjoyment out of music is certainly not too outrageous a standard to have - but I find the second one rather ... nonsensical. Just doesn't make sense for someone to have to identify with the music to like it.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Yes and no.

If something is dealt with in a skillfully done way, then it shouldn't matter if it is about relationships - all that should matter is the execution.

That doesn't make sense to me - as I have said, I can appreciate art that is well executed. But as far as enjoyment goes, I'd still much rather listen to adequately executed music that I can relate to on a personal level over superbly executed music conveying a message that I find boring and dissatisfying.

Perhaps - but my post could also apply to general anti-Christian themes as well.

Debatable in the long and off-topic sense of the word.

Getting enjoyment out of music is certainly not too outrageous a standard to have - but I find the second one rather ... nonsensical. Just doesn't make sense for someone to have to identify with the music to like it.

I don't believe that is what I said.

 

[Mort Divine]

That doesn't make sense to me - as I have said, I can appreciate art that is well executed. But as far as enjoyment goes, I'd still much rather listen to adequately executed music that I can relate to on a personal level over superbly executed music conveying a message that I find boring and dissatisfying.


Debatable in the long and off-topic sense of the word.


I don't believe that is what I said.

Aye, I can respect that I guess.

Yes, and let us not go into that, as I don't want to be the one walking away with a bruised ego due to lack of ability to argue

It came off as that - what with the whole "that I can identify with" part.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

It came off as that - what with the whole "that I can identify with" part.

Yes, but you turned my preference into a binary absolute. I didn't say I had to identify with music to enjoy it, but obviously it helps. The greater a personal connection you have with a certain piece, the more enjoyable it will probably be to you.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

I like how you implied that I have a mild distate for Jews. Very nice.

You can't be serious.

Anyway, all I have to say is it must be simply a matter of you being more sensitive to conflicting ideological differences than I am, because I thoroughly oppose racism and bigotry, yet I have no problem enjoying NS Black Metal while perceiving the ideology evoked and the degree of separation that it is from my own. Believe it or not, but it's possible. I'm not going to argue it though.

How strong a belief does "thoroughly oppose" imply, I wonder? Are you active? Do you speak publicly, campaign against these things, hand out pamphlets, attend rallies, then go home and blast Aryan Terrorism? To be vehemently opposed to racism and yet enjoy racist entertainment is simply a contradiction. Something isn't being taken seriously, either the personal belief of the lister or the music. Something has to give.

 

[Mort Divine]

Yes, but you turned my preference into a binary absolute. I didn't say I had to identify with music to enjoy it, but obviously it helps. The greater a personal connection you have with a certain piece, the more enjoyable it will probably be to you.

Ah, well I appologize. I guess - but really I don't think a personal connection has to be bred out of the capacity for one to be able to relate to the music, well rather the lyrical and thematic content that is. I've in a sense forged a rather "deep" connection with Agalloch's The Mantle and there is little I can identify with in it, aside from I suppose the love of nature. I find myself more identifying with the feeling conveyed from the music that is being played rather than that which is being expressed in the words.

 

[thisisaformicatable]

Ah, well I appologize. I guess - but really I don't think a personal connection has to be bred out of the capacity for one to be able to relate to the music, well rather the lyrical and thematic content that is. I've in a sense forged a rather "deep" connection with Agalloch's The Mantle and there is little I can identify with in it, aside from I suppose the love of nature. I find myself more identifying with the feeling conveyed from the music that is being played rather than that which is being expressed in the words.

Well that's just it - there are parts of the music that connect with you, but there isn't anything that you find blatantly disagreeable. That's what I mean by identifying with the music. And when I say music I mean it in the holistic sense (sound + words + themes + presentation + etc.), certain parts of the music can appeal to the listener more than others at different times and in different cases, but there is pretty much always something that you identify with in the music you enjoy that overwhelms any dissenting reaction. This can range from sympathizing with a vague mood to specific political ideas, but there's something.

Do you?

No, I'm speaking hypothetically to better illustrate my position, not trying to bring this to a personal level as you again seem to misinterpret.