2008 Political debate thread

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I'm against minimum wages as well. I'm for capitalism. I'm against unions. I'm for Anti-trust laws. I'm against mergers and acquisitions. I'm against outsourcing. I'm against socialism programs. I'm against globalizing anything. I am for finding new sources of affordable REUSABLE energy. I'm for R&D at a high level for national defense/information security defense. I'm for affordable higher education. I'm for a draft. I'm against "causers of the week".

To top it off, I have no answers. But that's how I vote.
 
if only things were that simple

That last minimum wage increase, I forget how much it was exactly but lets say it was 50 cents. That cost all those Mom n Pop places with two employees a whole 40 bucks a week...... not hard to see why they went under........

I dont imagine it had anything to do with rapidly inflating insurance rates, ungodly heating/utility bills, greedy local tax grabbing town & school boards, nor internet shopping, nor the rise of super chain stores... . We all know the minimum wage has made it hard for super chain stores to grow and make huge profits... thats why their called chain stores... because they are danglin by a chain

yep blame it all on the people at the bottom, ignore everything else... its easier, less complicated
 
cant be pro capitolism and anti union at the same time, the unions are only promoting their capitolistic interests..... hows that for a catch ?

Another capitolism/union example I like to use

Ok the biggest capitolistic pigs are CEO's, now lets say CEO's are not "organized", they have no "union" but yet they are members of one of the biggest, oldest, good ol' boys club in history..... naw their not organized. Yet when they are defended, people say, well the CEOs at such and such a place make 4 million a year, so should these CEO's.......... sounds like a communistic, socialist, unionized ideal to me.

Is not the Armed Forces a brotherhood ?
Is not the group of people called politicians, law makers, lawyers, law enforcers a brotherhood ?
Is not the group of college phrats a brotherhood ?
Perhaps it seems "Unions" are the only ones that came out of the closet and keep records that are under constant scrutiny

and the plot thickens
 
I dont label anyone. Just wanted to give people some things to think about. With my opinions I try to base them as close as possible on the big picture, past and present and how things came to be. Didnt mean to get anyone upset or even believe things I pointed out would get someone upset.
 
It's not so much what you say, it's how you say it. Or at least how you come across saying it.

And I am very anti-union as well. I would rather be paid what I'm worth than to be paid the same amount as the jackoff working next to me because of some "collective bargaining" deal.
 
I used to be anti union when I was younger. There are alot of problems with unions but I have seen that elsewhere in the non union work field as well. When I was young I used to say "what makes those guys worth so much ?" talking about what Union workers were paid compared to the rest of us labor people. Then one day I woke up and realized the real question I should have been asking all those years was "what makes me worth so little ?".

I had come down from my some what secluded life style of working alone, for myself, in the middle of nowhere (a wonderful place BTW) and hit the job market. This got me down around the burban sprawl, and I was able to see all these mansions and mini castle neighborhoods.... that never used to be there, and I was completely culture shocked. I thought "here I've been busting my ass all these years, providing raw products used in these $400,000 houses... for peanuts". I began to wonder where was my fair slice of the pie (cherry) for my fair efforts to this society was. Then I began to realize what the positive aspects of the trade Unions accomplished. They kept a better balance of incomes between the two basic working groups in this country... white collar and blue collar. I figured, OK "fair enough".

I lost a big chunk of my industry due to the paper companies taking their profits earned off American backs and building modern plants somewhere down in South America. They literally evacuated this country. So there I had 20 years of sweat, skinned knuckles, investment and the learning curve, gone in an instant. The local paper wrote an artical regarding the 1500 plant workers/families that lost their jobs... not a single sentence was written regarding the few thousand of us out in the field that supplied the plants and had actual investments and the better part of our lifetimes tied up in our work.

In the past 7 or 8 years of being in the "job market" I've found theres not much in good jobs out there. The people in the Unions are fairing the best. I responded to many places looking for help that have advertised as "competitive wages". I found out what they were calling "competitive wages" must have been refering to "competitive with welfare". Somewhere around this time was when the idea of organized labor began to make sence to me.

So yea, I have some very strong views and a very good angle regarding what has been going on and am very outspoken about them. Some people just dont know, and even when they are told about it, just dont care. I think you need to be caught in it to really know what it feels like.... even if you have one ounce of concern for your fellow countrymen, you still cant grasp the situation, its understandable... I guess.
 
I dont label anyone. Just wanted to give people some things to think about. With my opinions I try to base them as close as possible on the big picture, past and present and how things came to be. Didnt mean to get anyone upset or even believe things I pointed out would get someone upset.

I think it's just how you are coming across in this medium. This is easily your most pleasant post :)
 
Thing is, we have a very diverse crowd on these forums. Old, young, differnt financial and working backgrounds, huge variety in jobs. It's interesting to see how these debates go...

On the topic of unions, they're both good and bad, just like anythign else. In theory they're great. They make sure people aren't treated unfairly by their superiors and make sure they get paid a living wage and so on. This would work awesome if people would understand that by being given this "protection", they're obligated to fulfill their side of the agreement. But, people are generally lazy. My workplace (thankfully not my job) is largely unionized. Because of the union, people get away with so much shit that they should be demoted or fired for. To me, that's unacceptable. Not only that, but people do a half-assed job and feel like they are owed something for their time (raises, promotions, etc.) when they have earned nothing of that.

The problem with any of these topics is they have good intentions, but human nature (in general) makes it not work. people are both lazy and want to take advantage of others. Without unions, you may get a shitty boss who will make you miserable and there's nothing you can do but quit and find another job. With unions, it empowers those who should have no power because they are simply leeches.

Edit: to clarify, these are general statements. I think the majority of the people are fairly honest, but they are quiet about it so you don't notice. There are always going to be a vocal minority that ruin the whole thing for everyone.
 
I'm against minimum wages as well. I'm for capitalism. I'm for Anti-trust laws.


Just to point out, Anti trust laws are some of the most socialistic restrictions of business to ever get put into law. These sort of things create monopolies, they don't stop them from happening. The government needs to stay the fuck out of our economy 100%. Saying you're for capitalism and for anti-trust is a giant contradiction of beliefs.
 
Maybe, but they're still two different things Matt. They're not mutually exclusive by any stretch.

As for minimum wage, that's gotta stay. There are so many places where people work 2 or 3 minimum wage jobs just to get by, and the fact that there is a set minimum wage is the only thing that keeps these people and their families alive. Sure, you could say they should go back to school, get an education and a better job, but that is not a reality for some folks. Of course, a lot of these problems could be solved if people waited until they were stable to have kids, lived within their means, etc. but that's not reality. Again, it goes back to my last post of "if everyone were to do what they were supposed to do..."

Take away the minimum wage thing and it becomes an undercutting competition. Who will do the job for less? Those people are hired. Why do you think there's such a problem with companies hiring illegal immigrants? Is it because they want to help those in need of jobs? No. It's because illegals will work harder for far less pay and never complain about it. While it would be legal of course, it would be the same concept of hiring those who will work for less. There has to be some standard.
 
Good points Zach and you are spot on about the Unions. The support of slackerism is what has always pissed me off. But you really do see that elsewhere as well, they are just not as protected. It really is too bad the Unions like everything else American got so perverted and twisted
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ya know - I have no clue what anti trust laws are......... lol somehow anti and trust in the same sentence finds me heading to the shop to work on the anti matter vaporizer....... lol
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Still dont agree with yngvaiX, I feel the government needs to step up to the plate and stop all the nonsense, including thier own. They were put in place to protect all the fair and reasonable interests of ALL the people of the United States. With the current economic balance and "credit" spiraling out of control, I believe they failed, big time. Dont forget that the storm that brought this country to independence revolved around economics, tax issues and representation. Somehow today this has been lost but we still cling to the "constitution"....... go figure
 
And that's why our jobs are outsourced. :D

Key word - OUR - outsourced does not correspond with OUR
outsourced does not correspond with "a government for the people"

well at least "I" straightened out my tone on this tread..... might not last though.........
 
Anybody who would agree with outsourcing should be shot. It has historically been shown to be a failure. It may save money on the bottom line, but I think the more far-ranging effects of customer service and customer loyalty remove the cost benefits and hurt the corporations.

But that kind of thinking would probably label me anti-postmodernism - a label I will most graciously accept!
 
Anybody who would agree with outsourcing should be shot. It has historically been shown to be a failure. It may save money on the bottom line, but I think the more far-ranging effects of customer service and customer loyalty remove the cost benefits and hurt the corporations.

But that kind of thinking would probably label me anti-postmodernism - a label I will most graciously accept!

Thank you very much.... may I have another..... :worship:

Remarks I have recieved about my views have been "protectionist" "nationalist" & worse
its funny to hear too because it seems to want to deny the oldest natural instinct known to mankind, mammals and even reptiles. Yes indeed even reptiles protect their nest... but not allowed in America.....
 
Unfortunately, once a corporation becomes a publicly traded company, they are at the beck and call and whims of Wall Street. Companies need investors to raise the capital required to grow their businesses, and Wall Street analysts hold a great amount of power as a result.
 
they play it like some kind of game though, like its a form of entertainment
I dont see where its worked very well or is the slightest in sync with the rest of societies dayly life. We get up we go to work, we get our job done, it makes money, non eventfull but down there they act like crutial things must happen everyday, in a sickening feeding frenzy. The history of the exchange speaks for itself. Slow growth with both eyes on the future is the answer, not those stimulaters seeking a quick mark for themselves. Businesses should grow on profits not money they havent made yet, then everyone ends up having to dance to the tune of those greedy self indulged idjuts. Pulling money from here and putting it there, next day move it again, all in the name of making the rich richer, then theres a big panic attack. But we get up every morning, go to work, produce, get the job done, what they do is insignifacant to a productive life. They should probably try to find some real jobs where they can be an honest productive part of society, not minipulative enemies.
 
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