noble savage
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Wow. Did you ever find a comparable job? There should be some sort of law against that.
2008 Political debate thread
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Wow. Did you ever find a comparable job? There should be some sort of law against that.
ABQShredHead
©1970
Shitty story, JDub, and I empathize. Aside from where it left you, knowing the company went under as a result, do you feel any sense of vindication?
To satisfy my curiousity, was your job Union?
Progged
Member
I'm completely against outsourcing. But,when a company is expected to meet the bottom line, and unions drive wages to the point of insanity - it becomes inevitable... Tell me that you wouldn't make similar changes if your job was on the line to make X amount of dollars every quarter. EDIT: Not to be sounding non-sympathetic JW, I think it's a shit deal. I personally would vote for massive taxes for outsourcing, or removing it completely.
ABQShredHead
©1970
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
Nope, was unemployed/under employed for a 2 1/2 years, ran out my unemployment benefits, ran hot & cold with IT consulting, drove cars for a local car dealership for $7/hr cash so I could eat, worked for a YEAR at Home depot for $10/hr doing hard labor, got hurt, needed surgery, almost lost my home, my car, and everything I worked so hard for. Sold off every last piece of musical gear & collectibles I had, to survive. It really was a rough go. I'm currently back in IT, but at just a bit better than HALF of what I was making. I get really pissed when those not affected or uninformed by/about outsourcing make a semi-blanket statement, and then talk about lack of ambition. No offense to ABQShredhed, but the right buttons got pushed on this one (Seriously, I'm not pissed, but definately got the fires stoked to respond
). Outsourcing and "free trade" have very far reaching effects, especially in a rural area where at one time, more than 70% of the town's working force was employed by this company. I moved to where I am "stuck" currently, to work for said company. I've seen what Motorola did to a small town in Northern Illinois called Harvard. Makes my nightmare look like a walk in the park. That town will NEVER recover....I was not Union (IT SHOULD be unionized, but it will NEVER happen!)
and our plant wasn't union either. Other plants at the company were, and they tried to unionize, but there was never enough support. There are many pros & cons about unions, but that's better left to a future thread...
I do feel vindicated, but another year or 2 there might have helped me avoid a huge downfall & bankruptcy. They just came out of chaper 11 re-org at the end of January. I wonder how many are left?
thats a hell of a overview of the jobs lost from this country....... AND THOSE WHO LOST THEM !
Nice narrowed minded "liberal" view of reality
this country had no problem supporting itself more economically in post war times when there were lots of these middle class/working class jobs here. We didnt need store shelves loaded with cheap disposable products. We didnt need dual income homes just so a family could make the bills.
people with that view only think they know what went down.
I'd like to hear how the people running the show, corporate officals and board members/stock holders... made out when JD's once productive American industry was run into the ground ? ? ? ? Its the same story everywhere, it was a plague that swept from one end of the country to the other the past 30 years.
It was selling off America
it was quick profits for a handful
it was a money grab for those with the power to manipulate it
I wouldnt want to accuse anybody of sucking in with a bunch of bias one sided propaganda.... 90 degrees off course from the line of reality... or nothin
ABQShredHead
©1970
ABQShredHead
©1970
I'm sorry, but did you point something out?
JDub, what conditions have you "stuck" where you are at?
JDub, what conditions have you "stuck" where you are at?
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
So recently I was trying to decide what kind of pie I like better, lemon meringue, or bavarian creme. Its been a long time since I've had a good bavarian creme, so I've been leaning towards the lemon meringue... Jersey diners usually stock good pie...
(just trying to defuse the moment, carry on! )
(just trying to defuse the moment, carry on!
)
J-Dubya 777
It NEVER ends
Shitty housing market, low paying job that won't let me live better or even at the same level, in Illinois.
Progged
Member
Razor, I've yet to see any solution provided by you to keep a company competitive when their competition is saving money by outsourcing. As a matter of fact, I've yet to see any suggested solution for anything that you are complaining about.
well neither has you or ABQ...............
its a nearly impossible trend to reverse at this time.
first I would not have allowed Chinese and Japanese products into the states starting back in the 60's
then when it was to late to stop that I would have strictly minimized it
then in the 80's I would not have allowed foreign interests to purchase property in the States
I would not have allowed the big corporate mergers and buy outs, not that this was anything new, see the old automotive days for example but at least they expanded North American employment and industrial growth, provide products and jobs to this country
When our corporations decided that rather than meeting environmental regulations in this country and cleaning up their act, decided to move out of the country and polute elsewhere, I would have said fine, just dont plan on selling your products here
Same goes for those that decided to do it for cheap labor. Alot of that was done for the PROFITS of cheap labor but it was also done to avoid having to abide by labor laws set forth by this country. So technically while they were not breaking laws of this country because they were off our soil EMPLOYMENT and ENVIRONMENT wise, they still really did violate our laws, principles and ethics........ yet they were allowed to remain in our market
now you tell me where the eye on the future was regarding the interests OF THE PEOPLE when all this stuff was going down
and you tell me WHO benefited
we did not need to become a country of consumers for the sake of consumtion
If I was to have my way the international trade agreements would not have spent more than two weeks on the table while congressmen wasted tax payer money figureing out a way to screw working class Americans out of a decent living in order to please the already wealthy corporate boys and wall street investors after more quick and easy bucks....... wanna talk about whos fucking lazy........
Why should workers in America, the decendents of those that broke thier ass and shed their blood to build what this country became, have been forced to compete with people in undeveloped countrys that didnt have the balls to get off there own ass's and fight for their rites in their own countries, use thier brains and follow our role model? Now we finance and pay the price as workers, while our corporations take the profits they origionally made off the backs of American workers and build new plants across borders... all in the name of cheap labor and no environmental concern
Go ahead, tell me Im lyin...... the money came from some fucking where, it did not come because American workers were running thier employers into the ground.... though the "propaganda" has painted that picture and young generations of Americans have swallowed it whole.
now if thats not bad enough, now theses countries have wealth and power and we are becoming insignificant, except as a war machine and the place for other countrys to sell their productivity
it will hardly be interesting the hear the waffling, blind eye responces to this...... but I will try to find some humor in them, the laughs not on me anymore, that laugh was in the 80's & 90's when we just couldnt believe it would ever go this far.
its a nearly impossible trend to reverse at this time.
first I would not have allowed Chinese and Japanese products into the states starting back in the 60's
then when it was to late to stop that I would have strictly minimized it
then in the 80's I would not have allowed foreign interests to purchase property in the States
I would not have allowed the big corporate mergers and buy outs, not that this was anything new, see the old automotive days for example but at least they expanded North American employment and industrial growth, provide products and jobs to this country
When our corporations decided that rather than meeting environmental regulations in this country and cleaning up their act, decided to move out of the country and polute elsewhere, I would have said fine, just dont plan on selling your products here
Same goes for those that decided to do it for cheap labor. Alot of that was done for the PROFITS of cheap labor but it was also done to avoid having to abide by labor laws set forth by this country. So technically while they were not breaking laws of this country because they were off our soil EMPLOYMENT and ENVIRONMENT wise, they still really did violate our laws, principles and ethics........ yet they were allowed to remain in our market
now you tell me where the eye on the future was regarding the interests OF THE PEOPLE when all this stuff was going down
and you tell me WHO benefited
we did not need to become a country of consumers for the sake of consumtion
If I was to have my way the international trade agreements would not have spent more than two weeks on the table while congressmen wasted tax payer money figureing out a way to screw working class Americans out of a decent living in order to please the already wealthy corporate boys and wall street investors after more quick and easy bucks....... wanna talk about whos fucking lazy........
Why should workers in America, the decendents of those that broke thier ass and shed their blood to build what this country became, have been forced to compete with people in undeveloped countrys that didnt have the balls to get off there own ass's and fight for their rites in their own countries, use thier brains and follow our role model? Now we finance and pay the price as workers, while our corporations take the profits they origionally made off the backs of American workers and build new plants across borders... all in the name of cheap labor and no environmental concern
Go ahead, tell me Im lyin...... the money came from some fucking where, it did not come because American workers were running thier employers into the ground.... though the "propaganda" has painted that picture and young generations of Americans have swallowed it whole.
now if thats not bad enough, now theses countries have wealth and power and we are becoming insignificant, except as a war machine and the place for other countrys to sell their productivity
it will hardly be interesting the hear the waffling, blind eye responces to this...... but I will try to find some humor in them, the laughs not on me anymore, that laugh was in the 80's & 90's when we just couldnt believe it would ever go this far.
ABQShredHead
©1970
It's simple money flow, dude. Accountants and CEOs seek to make (money in >> money out). Operational expenses of corporations these days are huge. Not merely wages, but in benefits, perks, etc. Those in control of companies will always seek to reduce these costs, and if they can find cheaper labor they will go with it.
I'm not saying I agree with any of it. What I do promote is bettering yourself to reach to better jobs. I live in a state with a median family income less than $50,000. The City and State legislative bodies sought to increase minimum wage last year because of all the people complaining their Wal-Mart and McDonald's jobs are not allowing them to support their families. My thoughts are that minimum-wage jobs are for younger people, even high schoolers and college students. People supporting families should not make careers out of these jobs. Granted, times may require them to be there, but their stints should be short term while they look for a career position with a firm. The results of the increased minimum wages a year later: many mom & pop stores have gone under due to the increased wages, for which they had to raise prices which turned people away from their stores. Restaurants raised their prices. So, everything gets passed on to the consumers, who tend to reduce their spending when prices increase.
To apply to my "argument", corporations must compete on their playing fields to produce the lowest-cost product they can to increase sales so their corporation looks good on paper to attract investors.
JDub's story proves a point that outsourcing for cheaper labor is not the answer in most instances. It appears to me that most outsourcing has resulted in crappier, more disposable merchandise and reduced customer service. Corporations fail to see the impact of poor customer service because that is not something quantifiable to the accountants. They can't write a quantity into a line item that shows benefit to their corporation. Instead, they see reduced sales to and loyalty from their customers, which again gets them looking to save money on operation expenses.
I didn't get through your diatribe there because I have a hard time reading your writings and you feel the need to make all your arguments with anybody on this forum confrontational.
I'm not saying I agree with any of it. What I do promote is bettering yourself to reach to better jobs. I live in a state with a median family income less than $50,000. The City and State legislative bodies sought to increase minimum wage last year because of all the people complaining their Wal-Mart and McDonald's jobs are not allowing them to support their families. My thoughts are that minimum-wage jobs are for younger people, even high schoolers and college students. People supporting families should not make careers out of these jobs. Granted, times may require them to be there, but their stints should be short term while they look for a career position with a firm. The results of the increased minimum wages a year later: many mom & pop stores have gone under due to the increased wages, for which they had to raise prices which turned people away from their stores. Restaurants raised their prices. So, everything gets passed on to the consumers, who tend to reduce their spending when prices increase.
To apply to my "argument", corporations must compete on their playing fields to produce the lowest-cost product they can to increase sales so their corporation looks good on paper to attract investors.
JDub's story proves a point that outsourcing for cheaper labor is not the answer in most instances. It appears to me that most outsourcing has resulted in crappier, more disposable merchandise and reduced customer service. Corporations fail to see the impact of poor customer service because that is not something quantifiable to the accountants. They can't write a quantity into a line item that shows benefit to their corporation. Instead, they see reduced sales to and loyalty from their customers, which again gets them looking to save money on operation expenses.
I didn't get through your diatribe there because I have a hard time reading your writings and you feel the need to make all your arguments with anybody on this forum confrontational.
diatribe...... big word....... thats what I get for being lazy and not bettering myself
confrontational ? responding is confrontational ? confrontational is wrong, therefore people should just sit down, shut up and let it all go... right ? I realize this is a concept our government and other powers would like us to grasp. But thats not what I do, I am simply responding to what is said, to the person that said it. Its apparently confrontational.... as when you said something about pacifists. Dont get upset about my to the point directiveness, its how I function.
I did mangage to summon up the energy to read your post which was the same ol humdrum propaganda we've been hearing since working class America has been saying "WTF" ? It was a basic economics theory we are actually born with... however perverted by greed
What you didnt respond/confront me with was where we would be today if American workers were not put on the spot to "compete" with poor undeveloped countries for what constitutes survival incomes for equal contributors to our American society.
There you go again.... placing Walmart and MacDonalds workers as the core of affected Americans. Then you talk about Mom & Pop business and restaurants/diners.... in the same sentence.... NO LESS ! Well geeze... what if people could afford to go to nicer stores like we did a few decades ago? Or out to diner, because their labor force jobs kept up with other American workers instead of those of China, Mexico, India and points beyond ?
One eye closed... Im tellin ya
confrontational ? responding is confrontational ? confrontational is wrong, therefore people should just sit down, shut up and let it all go... right ? I realize this is a concept our government and other powers would like us to grasp. But thats not what I do, I am simply responding to what is said, to the person that said it. Its apparently confrontational.... as when you said something about pacifists. Dont get upset about my to the point directiveness, its how I function.
I did mangage to summon up the energy to read your post which was the same ol humdrum propaganda we've been hearing since working class America has been saying "WTF" ? It was a basic economics theory we are actually born with... however perverted by greed
What you didnt respond/confront me with was where we would be today if American workers were not put on the spot to "compete" with poor undeveloped countries for what constitutes survival incomes for equal contributors to our American society.
There you go again.... placing Walmart and MacDonalds workers as the core of affected Americans. Then you talk about Mom & Pop business and restaurants/diners.... in the same sentence.... NO LESS ! Well geeze... what if people could afford to go to nicer stores like we did a few decades ago? Or out to diner, because their labor force jobs kept up with other American workers instead of those of China, Mexico, India and points beyond ?
One eye closed... Im tellin ya
ABQShredHead
©1970
You're, like, out there, and I don't really know how to respond to that. Your logic seems to be too far over my head, and I will graciously step away from this discussion.
I dont get that, Im not out there, probably just a member of part of the working class you arent fimiliar with. It even appears you are uaware of whats gone on, in our side of the camp, the past ? just say 10 years. Its simple, if we did'nt start down this course, these problems would not exist in this country today. Rather than stopping them now, were going to go at it full tilt and let the chips fall where they may and say "well, to bad for them, they didnt want to better themselves".
Then we could get into the definition of what bettering ones self is. Would I feel good about myself if I was a lawyer....... No! I would be very uncomfortable with my position of leaching off the fallout of a blind society. Would I feel good about myself if I was on a board of investors, cutting peoples jobs so I could maintain my 4 mil fully perked income for life....... NO! Theres many more examples but even I would get bored.
I wouldnt want someone to step away from a discussion, I would just like them to see that there is alot of things going down, people getting hurt, they might not be aware of and most of those ignore long term prosperity for the bulk of American people.
They sure made it look good the past 10 years or so with extended lines of CREDIT.... No ?
Then we could get into the definition of what bettering ones self is. Would I feel good about myself if I was a lawyer....... No! I would be very uncomfortable with my position of leaching off the fallout of a blind society. Would I feel good about myself if I was on a board of investors, cutting peoples jobs so I could maintain my 4 mil fully perked income for life....... NO! Theres many more examples but even I would get bored.
I wouldnt want someone to step away from a discussion, I would just like them to see that there is alot of things going down, people getting hurt, they might not be aware of and most of those ignore long term prosperity for the bulk of American people.
They sure made it look good the past 10 years or so with extended lines of CREDIT.... No ?
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
the minimum wage law should be abolished. It does nothing but exactly what ABQ said. Not to mention it should be the employer who decides how much (or little) someone's job is worth. If you're not making enough money at one job, go find one that will pay you more. Or ask your employer for a raise.
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