rockyracoon
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Maybe I missed it in your post, but who specifically are you referring to when you say, "PAY THEM PROPERLY GOD DAMNIT." People who do jobs most of us would rather not do?
2008 Political debate thread
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Maybe I missed it in your post, but who specifically are you referring to when you say, "PAY THEM PROPERLY GOD DAMNIT." People who do jobs most of us would rather not do?
I do agree with you when you say menial jobs should be filled by teenagers to help instill a work ethic (I spent a year packing boxes in a warehouse), but at the same time, it's not as simple as that. In the city, there aren't any farms for teenagers to pick fruit or any grass for them to cut. Dynamics in an urban setting are different, and it's not easy for the average teenager in high school to land a job part-time that uneducated people are willing to take full-time.
I think you missed the point about the necessary emphasis on education. It's not all about sitting behind a desk and slaving away to Shakespeare and calculus. The whole point is to open people's eyes, and even if they were to scratch the surface on just a few topics, they could be exposed to things they never even knew existed and develop an understanding and appreciation for other things in the world.
I think you missed the point about the necessary emphasis on education. It's not all about sitting behind a desk and slaving away to Shakespeare and calculus. The whole point is to open people's eyes, and even if they were to scratch the surface on just a few topics, they could be exposed to things they never even knew existed and develop an understanding and appreciation for other things in the world.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
Exactly. I'm not calling for everyone to be a particle physics expert. Naturally, we do need someone to do that job. But not everyone. There's many jobs out there, even something as perceptively simple as auto mechanic or carpenter, that would greatly benefit from certain knowledge. They could do their jobs better, and be generally more informed psychologically when it comes to social interaction, weeding the truth out of the media, and selecting public officials. That's what I mean by education. Improving the schools is a means to improve people's social IQ.
This has been a very interesting thread. I agree with emphasizing education. I don't agree with the holier-than-thou attitudes regarding peoples' personal lifestyles to reinvigorate our culture. Television isn't a bad thing, and neither is homosexuality. Religion does not belong on public property because public property is paid for by everyone. There are many sources for religion in the private sector. For example, The 10 Commandments do not belong on any court building as only 3 have any legal bearing to the public at large, among other reasons. Intelligent design cannot even be called bad science - it's just not science, period. I wouldn't say the occurrence of evolution was fact, but the evidence for it tremendous. I accept it as the best explanation for the diversity of life unless something more profound is discovered. Global warming is a widely accepted phenomenon by those qualified to interpret the data. This topic has become far too muddied in the public, by those not wanting it to be true, for a reasonable discussion of its affects, if any. I agree that all solutions proposed are more than lacking. These are my brief opinions. I'd be glad to talk about them in length, but the discussions are probably already dead.
For the election, I will be voting for Obama in November. McCain has no original war, economic or education policy. A good preview of the change Obama wants to bring was his leading the DNC to stop accepting PAC money. Of course it is unlikely Obama will actually change the political landscape, but that isn't a detriment to the idea that someone should try. There are things I don't agree with in his policies such as continuing to raise the minimum wage, but I think his overall platform is more impressive.
For the election, I will be voting for Obama in November. McCain has no original war, economic or education policy. A good preview of the change Obama wants to bring was his leading the DNC to stop accepting PAC money. Of course it is unlikely Obama will actually change the political landscape, but that isn't a detriment to the idea that someone should try. There are things I don't agree with in his policies such as continuing to raise the minimum wage, but I think his overall platform is more impressive.
noble savage
Member
I agree 100% about the 10 commandments. I don't understand one bit why they would even be considered applicable to our society (Or any free society for that matter). They insult common sense and the right to choose freely what or what not to believe in.
I'm not the type of person who wants to purge the world of culture and tradition associated with religion. In fact, that's what makes the world a great place to live (Or maybe not...). I guess this is applicable to food, music, dancing or whatever. What I don't like is blatant government sponsored evangelism in favor of one religion (Mostly Christianity it seems here). Like the 10 commandments in public. Or, as mentioned many times before, trying to change scientific methods/standards because they contradict your religious views.
Maybe what we all need is more culture. I bet if people, especially children, where exposed (instead of being sheltered) to other cultures and religion it would be a more tolerable place. I want Viking Day!!
I'm not the type of person who wants to purge the world of culture and tradition associated with religion. In fact, that's what makes the world a great place to live (Or maybe not...). I guess this is applicable to food, music, dancing or whatever. What I don't like is blatant government sponsored evangelism in favor of one religion (Mostly Christianity it seems here). Like the 10 commandments in public. Or, as mentioned many times before, trying to change scientific methods/standards because they contradict your religious views.
Maybe what we all need is more culture. I bet if people, especially children, where exposed (instead of being sheltered) to other cultures and religion it would be a more tolerable place. I want Viking Day!!
Hey Im not disagreeing with you guys on the education bit but it seems to me you are on cloud nine. With the internet, the tube, video games, movies ect ect ect there is no lack of culture or exposure in this country. The most intellegent people will fuck up their credit cards, be optimisdtic and go for a huge mortgage because they want a home, its the American dream and not their fault that capitolistic greed and the shit law "supply and demand" ran housing prices up 400% when it came their turn for a chance at their own independent life. To much arm-chairing there, one minute someone like me will get critized for being unwilling to go out on a line and take a chance, being conservative and lifing in the past, not pushing further, more, more, more........ then as soon as someone optimistic plays the modern game you want to condemn them because the banks, realitors, developers and community planing boards (fucking politicians) were all in on the big scam, LEGALLY in the first place. Selling the big bill of goods, optimistic America, great future in tech jobs, bla bla bla.....
Look Im not religious, so long as they dont make me pray Im fine with everything else. You anti religous cry babys need to face the fact that America was founded on strong religious beliefs, those of Christianity, groups looking for religious freedom. Our basic ground work for law IS based on most of the ten commandments as is much of our constitution. In God we trust has been on our currency, in our National Pledge and all around us in this country since day one. In fact all the freedoms and liberties you take for granted were brought to you through the sweat and blood of men and women with strong heart and will from belief in God.
Now I suggest anyone having a problem with this get themselves a one way ticket to Iran or China, there are far bigger problems to cry about than the FACT that this country was founded on Christian beliefs and that in itself is the primary reason this is the most free and was the most prosperous country.... in fact its been since faith has faded that the country has faded and the economic scales tilted heavier one way and decrepidation stepped in. I hear alot of people around this metal board talking smack about the "10 commandments" but I bet not one of them has the balls to break one of them in front of a group of people, knowing damn well it will get ones ass kicked and not because they are Christian. I also know the smack talkers would be first crying on their knees if their life was violated in a way warned about in those commandments. So please stop embarassing yourselves and deal with the truth about this country and why you are so free to cry about such a frivolous thing as the 10 commandments, though one would thing shame or pride would prevail.
[waits patiently for one to pull the seperation of Church and State card...]
Now I suggest anyone having a problem with this get themselves a one way ticket to Iran or China, there are far bigger problems to cry about than the FACT that this country was founded on Christian beliefs and that in itself is the primary reason this is the most free and was the most prosperous country.... in fact its been since faith has faded that the country has faded and the economic scales tilted heavier one way and decrepidation stepped in. I hear alot of people around this metal board talking smack about the "10 commandments" but I bet not one of them has the balls to break one of them in front of a group of people, knowing damn well it will get ones ass kicked and not because they are Christian. I also know the smack talkers would be first crying on their knees if their life was violated in a way warned about in those commandments. So please stop embarassing yourselves and deal with the truth about this country and why you are so free to cry about such a frivolous thing as the 10 commandments, though one would thing shame or pride would prevail.
[waits patiently for one to pull the seperation of Church and State card...]
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
You underlined the wrong word. The key there is separation. And while this country was founded largely by religious folks, it was also founded based on the principal that everyone is free to have their own religion and no one is forced to practice any specific religion.
Honestly, i don't see a problem with the ten commandments being on the walls in state buildings or "in god we trust" being on the back of our money because that has nothign to do with religious freedoms being surpressed. That's not a battle that needs to be fought because it's not giving christians any favor over other religions when put through the legal process or when buying groceries.
What DOES bother me is christian beliefs being taught in school (creationism being taught alongside evolution). This is where the line should be drawn. That is, of course, unless they want to start teaching evolution in churches, in which case they can talk about creationism in school all they want.
noble savage
Member
Afraid!?
I did the "blasphemy challenge" thing in front of my strongly Christian friend. He could have snapped me in half if he wanted to.
Ben Franklin wrote against Christianity and was a deist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dissertation_on_Liberty_and_Necessity,_Pleasure_and_Pain
Thomas Paine was a deist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason
All I'm trying to get at is a lot of the thinkers behind the brilliant structure of this country had very similar views to Atheists/Agnostics.
Why would these people, who you claim as Christian, break the first commandment by stating that people will be free to believe/not believe as they wish?
(Almost) every rational person on earth has an intrinsic pull toward altruistic behavior. I don't think it's right to say the 10 Commandments influenced early America simply because most are common sense.
I did the "blasphemy challenge" thing in front of my strongly Christian friend. He could have snapped me in half if he wanted to.Ben Franklin wrote against Christianity and was a deist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dissertation_on_Liberty_and_Necessity,_Pleasure_and_Pain
Thomas Paine was a deist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason
All I'm trying to get at is a lot of the thinkers behind the brilliant structure of this country had very similar views to Atheists/Agnostics.
Why would these people, who you claim as Christian, break the first commandment by stating that people will be free to believe/not believe as they wish?
(Almost) every rational person on earth has an intrinsic pull toward altruistic behavior. I don't think it's right to say the 10 Commandments influenced early America simply because most are common sense.
I don't have to go to the separation of church and state card. Most everything you said is false:
"In God We Trust" was added on coins in 1873 and paper 1957. "Under God" in the pledge in 1954. I wouldn't exactly call these times "day one."
Many countries are Christian countries and it says so in their constitutions. The US Constitution does not, and I wonder if that freedom is one reason why this country prospered so well.
Yes, of course, I should go to Iran or China. I could speak my mind in those places.
Have you read the 10 Commandments by the way? I break at least 3 of them all the time and would do it in front of you or anyone else. 1. "I am the Lord your God"--Nope. Broke that one. What are you going to do about it? They just don't apply and are not law. Many other societies have laws against murder and theft without the 10 Commandments. How?
This country was founded on the ideas of popular consent, separation of powers, rights, AND common ideals found in Christian doctrine among other things I can't think of off the top of my head. I'm not trying to devalue Christianity. I'm trying to express an opinion for equality in government. Of course there are more important issues than what's on court walls which is why I'm not picketing in Washington right now. I saw religion discussed earlier in the thread and added my input. Perhaps you should read the Bible that you defend so hostilely. You could learn something about interacting with others.
"In God We Trust" was added on coins in 1873 and paper 1957. "Under God" in the pledge in 1954. I wouldn't exactly call these times "day one."
Many countries are Christian countries and it says so in their constitutions. The US Constitution does not, and I wonder if that freedom is one reason why this country prospered so well.
Yes, of course, I should go to Iran or China. I could speak my mind in those places.
Have you read the 10 Commandments by the way? I break at least 3 of them all the time and would do it in front of you or anyone else. 1. "I am the Lord your God"--Nope. Broke that one. What are you going to do about it? They just don't apply and are not law. Many other societies have laws against murder and theft without the 10 Commandments. How?
This country was founded on the ideas of popular consent, separation of powers, rights, AND common ideals found in Christian doctrine among other things I can't think of off the top of my head. I'm not trying to devalue Christianity. I'm trying to express an opinion for equality in government. Of course there are more important issues than what's on court walls which is why I'm not picketing in Washington right now. I saw religion discussed earlier in the thread and added my input. Perhaps you should read the Bible that you defend so hostilely. You could learn something about interacting with others.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Yeah, i actually missed the whole point on being afraid of breaking the 10 commandments. I say "jesus christ" or "goddamnit" on a regular basis. In fact, one of my favorite exchanges was as follows (and this is seriously NOT a joke... it happened exactly like this):
Me: "Oh Jesus Christ!"
Christian Friend: "Hey! You do NOT take the Lord's name in vain!"
Me: "Well God Damnit, what the hell am I supposed to say then?"
Christian Friend: *gets fucking pissed and i laugh*
I also regularly practice with my band on sundays, as well as have been known to throw down a number of brews/other debaucherous behaviour on the sabbath, thus not keeping it holy. And I covet other people's shit/women all the time. The rest is either common sense (i'm not going to go out and fuckin' kill someone unless they wrong me in a way that justifies this behavior. I'm not going to steal because there's really no reason to. I may want shit, but i don't need to take it from other people) or doesn't apply (i don't worship any gods or idols). I don't see why i'd be afraid to admit any of that either.
Me: "Oh Jesus Christ!"
Christian Friend: "Hey! You do NOT take the Lord's name in vain!"
Me: "Well God Damnit, what the hell am I supposed to say then?"
Christian Friend: *gets fucking pissed and i laugh*
I also regularly practice with my band on sundays, as well as have been known to throw down a number of brews/other debaucherous behaviour on the sabbath, thus not keeping it holy. And I covet other people's shit/women all the time. The rest is either common sense (i'm not going to go out and fuckin' kill someone unless they wrong me in a way that justifies this behavior. I'm not going to steal because there's really no reason to. I may want shit, but i don't need to take it from other people) or doesn't apply (i don't worship any gods or idols). I don't see why i'd be afraid to admit any of that either.
^
Yes Zach, it calls for seperation of church and state but does not deny God. God and church do not go only hand in hand, many God believers in America have never stepped foot in a church.
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The bible was never taught when I was in school so I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
Seems to be some confusion here as bold ones get brash sacrilege in public... lol Let me underline for better translation :
I cant believe someone just posed the question about why America prospered... it sure as hell wasnt because we were wailing up against some fucking holy wall in the middle of a stark desert, or spending our lifes ambitions popping shots off around the corner of the barn because Jebadiah was Puritan not Protestant, but make no mistake this land and our laws were carved by the hand of people of strong faith. They needed it, those were hard times.
Its like everyone thinks some magic wand was waved and tada, land of the free home of the brave.
Yes Zach, it calls for seperation of church and state but does not deny God. God and church do not go only hand in hand, many God believers in America have never stepped foot in a church.
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The bible was never taught when I was in school so I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
Seems to be some confusion here as bold ones get brash sacrilege in public... lol Let me underline for better translation :
Oh well I should think so obvious and expect the technicality... anyhow fuck with someone elses property , wife, murder, steal ect , see how it goes.
I cant believe someone just posed the question about why America prospered... it sure as hell wasnt because we were wailing up against some fucking holy wall in the middle of a stark desert, or spending our lifes ambitions popping shots off around the corner of the barn because Jebadiah was Puritan not Protestant, but make no mistake this land and our laws were carved by the hand of people of strong faith. They needed it, those were hard times.
Its like everyone thinks some magic wand was waved and tada, land of the free home of the brave.
This county's ideals were based on Christianity? WRONG! I've said it many times here before, but this country was founded during the enlightenment, when humanism was emphasized. The adjective "Christian" could be applied here given similar context of something like "It's the Christian thing to do so and so," but to use it with the connotation "of or relating to Christianity" is just plain wrong, and you would be the #1 candidate for someone who needs to go back to the third grade to get their learn on. With respect to intolerance of all religions, when you take the majority in consideration and neglect the fundamentalists, Islam is just as peaceful as Christianity. The Taliban is to Islam as Pat Robertson is to Christianity.
I guess you need to get your learn on as to what people settled this country, as well as where our moral beliefs, then translated into laws.... before there were thousands of them... came from. "Enlightenment"... no doubt on the lips of all Americans around 1800 thru 1900 thru ???? 1950 ? hello
People came to this country for a variety of reasons. Yes, religious freedom was one of them. I don't see how that backs your argument. Colonial settlement and the ratification of the Constitution are two very different topics. The former happened 150 years earlier than the other. Read the constitutional debates and see what they were talking about. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't religion. You're vastly oversimplifying American political thought.
By your reasoning we could say that every advance made by a group of people of a particular faith was a product of that faith. Do you not see something wrong with that? It could be a component, but there is no evidence for a causal relationship.
By your reasoning we could say that every advance made by a group of people of a particular faith was a product of that faith. Do you not see something wrong with that? It could be a component, but there is no evidence for a causal relationship.
Hey if those of you say American never had anything to do with religion, fine, you must be correct. So now all we need to do to fix the country is make sure America continues to have nothing to do with religion, invests in science, invests in education, and invest in other cultures.... damn... sounds awful easy, we should be all straightend out in what ? 15 - 20 years once the ed kicks in and great scientific discoverys are made.
Burnout
Faith Puppeteer
How would religion offer any legitimate solutions? We probably would be making more scientific progress if folks like Bush did not use their religious values as a basis for hindering progress.
noble savage
Member
Exactly!
Stem cells offer humanity such a promising future, but the study of them was banned because the people in charge have a warped sense of reality. All we are talking about are human sex cells that bind with and copy preexisting cells to form new healthy cells. The implications of this are HUGE. From cancer to autism and even new limbs for those that have lost them. But no, that's immoral...
On the bright side, Obama is a pro science candidate. Maybe he can help fix this!
http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/04/01/obama-on-evolution/
http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/magazines/barack_obama_i_inhaled_that_was_the_point_46068.asp
Burnout
Faith Puppeteer
I believe Obama has a more proactive energy policy than McCain does too. If oil production is peaking, things are likely going to get interesting and be forced to change.
Exactly.
Exactly.
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