maybe..... but he does have a "cabinet" of cronies, he also has an entire political party, he also has the power to declare war and he also has the power to say OK enough of this bullshit....... but that will never happen.... will it
2008 Political debate thread
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maybe..... but he does have a "cabinet" of cronies, he also has an entire political party, he also has the power to declare war and he also has the power to say OK enough of this bullshit....... but that will never happen.... will it
CantoX
Member
The problem is not the president, and not everything can be blamed on him. People use the president as a scapegoat for the various problems going on in the world today because they are heavily ignorant on the subject and how all that political stuff works. I myself being one of the very many ignorant people, but I know enough not to point my finger at Bush everytime something goes wrong.
The system needs a reform, not the president. Presidents come and go but the system has been the same for years and years.
The system needs a reform, not the president. Presidents come and go but the system has been the same for years and years.
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
I'll probably wind up voting McCain. Apparently Barak has a Che flag hanging next to the US flag in his headquarters, fuck that.
Ideally, I'd vote for an Objectivist...
Ideally, I'd vote for an Objectivist...
noble savage
Member
I have been giving it some thought and, as long as Romney or Huckabee are not in the VP slot, McCain may get my vote as well. He seems to be the most competent and intelligent of the bunch. My biggest problem with him is that he supports the war though. You can't win them all.
I think it would be great if a majority elected an independent. It would just jar the system in a way that will not be done any other way. I dont think it would change alot but it would just be a more entertaining picture show, watching the Republican/Democrate machine stuttering over their words, behaving like the little babies they are, and going out of thier way to make sure nothing gets done or changes in this country.
Sorry Canto, while Im well aware of what you are saying, your only focusing on half of the picture. There is no doubt that this particular President is a total jack ass who has brought hell on this country. The current adminstration has focused on one thing and run our debt into and beyond our childrens lifetime, all while our own country had fallen to shit....... so yes there is still alot of power in the action of an adminstration.
As well as crying out for reform.... the only group that can possibly turn the tables toward the direction of reform is a Presidential adminstration thats got balls enough to take their place and then stand their ground and say "enough is enough, Wallstreet and the corporations are no longer going to run this country, we work for the people, all the interests of all the people of THIS country" No one else will ever have that power.
Mark my words, 4 years from now all the same words will still be on everyones lips, all the same problems, all the same issues, and four years after that, and four years after that, and on and on into eternity. Nothing ever changes. Those people go to work everyday, just to make sure nothing gets done, sit and argue, oppose, hymn and haw, for years.
Just fucking do it for Christs sake, if it doesnt work try something else... sit and argue for decades over trivial bullshit and never bust a move while half of the country is falling apart.... because we wouldnt want the frat boys to loose their dreams of greed and power and have to live a humble life like the other 80% of the population.
Sorry Canto, while Im well aware of what you are saying, your only focusing on half of the picture. There is no doubt that this particular President is a total jack ass who has brought hell on this country. The current adminstration has focused on one thing and run our debt into and beyond our childrens lifetime, all while our own country had fallen to shit....... so yes there is still alot of power in the action of an adminstration.
As well as crying out for reform.... the only group that can possibly turn the tables toward the direction of reform is a Presidential adminstration thats got balls enough to take their place and then stand their ground and say "enough is enough, Wallstreet and the corporations are no longer going to run this country, we work for the people, all the interests of all the people of THIS country" No one else will ever have that power.
Mark my words, 4 years from now all the same words will still be on everyones lips, all the same problems, all the same issues, and four years after that, and four years after that, and on and on into eternity. Nothing ever changes. Those people go to work everyday, just to make sure nothing gets done, sit and argue, oppose, hymn and haw, for years.
Just fucking do it for Christs sake, if it doesnt work try something else... sit and argue for decades over trivial bullshit and never bust a move while half of the country is falling apart.... because we wouldnt want the frat boys to loose their dreams of greed and power and have to live a humble life like the other 80% of the population.
Yngvai X
Dark Emperor
I have been giving it some thought and, as long as Romney or Huckabee are not in the VP slot, McCain may get my vote as well. He seems to be the most competent and intelligent of the bunch. My biggest problem with him is that he supports the war though. You can't win them all.
well yeah, Huckabee would turn this country into Jesusland if he had his way. I know McCain supports the war, but I'd rather have that than someone like Hilary saying they were going to garnish wages for socialized healthcare or some communistic crap like that.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
Well, it seems to work for every other civilized nation in the world to have some sort of national healthcare. The US is the only industrialized nation that doesn't have some form of universal healthcare, which is kind fo fucked. I've heard that arguement plenty of times that it is "communist" and "why should i pay for someone else's blah blah blah". I think it reflects very poorly on our society as a whole that people are so damned greedy that they have to say "well, this is mine, so on and so forth". While i do agree that no one should just get hand outs, the way our healthcare system is set up is not a good thing.
I'll use a personal example to illustrate my point. A few weeks ago i got the flu. I have a job, etc. etc. and work and all that, but I don't have any health insurance. So, i got to miss about 13 days of work in a 20 day period because i just simply can't afford to pay the doctors bills. I also can't afford to miss that on my paycheck, but i had to and it got to the point where basically i'm borrowing money right and left to pay for my bills and gas to get to work and practice. If we had something in place that was there to help people in those situations, i could have gone to the doctor and gotten better and not missed nearly 3 weeks of work.
Again, i'm not promoting welfair or anything like that since i have mixed feelings on all of that, but i think that our nations health is such a low priority and people are too damned greedy to give up a few meals at mcdonalds so people can be healthy is a little disturbing.
I'll use a personal example to illustrate my point. A few weeks ago i got the flu. I have a job, etc. etc. and work and all that, but I don't have any health insurance. So, i got to miss about 13 days of work in a 20 day period because i just simply can't afford to pay the doctors bills. I also can't afford to miss that on my paycheck, but i had to and it got to the point where basically i'm borrowing money right and left to pay for my bills and gas to get to work and practice. If we had something in place that was there to help people in those situations, i could have gone to the doctor and gotten better and not missed nearly 3 weeks of work.
Again, i'm not promoting welfair or anything like that since i have mixed feelings on all of that, but i think that our nations health is such a low priority and people are too damned greedy to give up a few meals at mcdonalds so people can be healthy is a little disturbing.
noble savage
Member
That's an excellent point. In fact, we went through the same thing with my Grandpa a few months ago. He had to take antibiotics for a few weeks and the kind the doctors gave would have cost over 2 grand a week (for 6 weeks!) There ended up being an alternative medicine that cost 4 dollars per week. If drug companies weren't so fucking greedy, that could solve many problems. I know doctor visits can cost a lot, but if the price of medicine went down it would greatly help people.
If it could help someone, I would gladly give some of my paycheck so they could get the medication they need. The only problem that I see with socialized health care is the huge cost. Being through the bullshit first hand, I can vouch for all of those who say something needs to be done. I just don't know if Hillary's plan will work.
ABQShredHead
©1970
I honestly think the only people who bring religion to politics are the media reporters digging up dirt and looking to make headlines. Religion brings about a set of morals and guiding principles to a person's life, and most of those are honorable. They will then bring their backgrounds to the table. Granted, there are many overzealous people out there, but they belong to any religion or any conceptuality in life. Look how zealous many on this board are about rejecting religion in all forms. In my state of life, I welcome conservative views, though I am by no means a Bible thumper. I cringe whenever I see a blind eye cast to the Bible due to somebody's previous experiences though. I cringe because I have my own experiences along those lines and can sympathize with the person.
I do question the Democrat side of the house and their preaching for "change" though. Exactly what are they looking to change, and how are they wishing to change it? Obama talks about "change" in every other sentence, but he never explains what change he is looking to bring to our country. Though most people I have seen are so afraid of bringing the Bible into politics, they have no problems supporting a candidate whose wife throws the entire history of our country under the bus in one public statement and wrote many racially sensitive papers in her college career. But, Obama is all about "change", and the American people have climbed onto his bandwagon in full without any understanding of the "change" he wishes to bring to the country. That, my friends, scares the hell out of me much more than any Bible thumper does.
I think Matt hit the nail on the head above with his reasons to support McCain. If you look close enough, you may see the "change" Obama wishes to bring to the country.
I do question the Democrat side of the house and their preaching for "change" though. Exactly what are they looking to change, and how are they wishing to change it? Obama talks about "change" in every other sentence, but he never explains what change he is looking to bring to our country. Though most people I have seen are so afraid of bringing the Bible into politics, they have no problems supporting a candidate whose wife throws the entire history of our country under the bus in one public statement and wrote many racially sensitive papers in her college career. But, Obama is all about "change", and the American people have climbed onto his bandwagon in full without any understanding of the "change" he wishes to bring to the country. That, my friends, scares the hell out of me much more than any Bible thumper does.
I think Matt hit the nail on the head above with his reasons to support McCain. If you look close enough, you may see the "change" Obama wishes to bring to the country.
Phanto
Alalalalalalalala.
Universal heath care is awesome. I'd pay even more for it if I'd have to.
Edit: That is, UHC funded via taxation.
Edit: That is, UHC funded via taxation.
noble savage
Member
I'm a democrat and I agree 100% with what you said about Obama. He may be charismatic, but I don't see much else behind that constant smile he always has on his face.
However, I disagree on the fact that the religious views of a candidate makes him a cut above the rest in terms of morality. It's basic human nature to be kind, caring and sympathetic towards other people. It also seems to me that it is this basic and common sense of morality that allows people to pick the nice parts of the bible from the not so nice parts and then attribute the good aspect of their behavior to religion when, in fact, it was a humanistic trait all along.
I hope I stated this right, it's not my intention to get into an argument/offend anyone. All I'm trying to say is that even without religion, I'm sure Mr. Huckabee would have been just as moral as he is with it. The only problem I have with it is that, from my humanistic perspective at least, he and people like him pick parts of the bible, misconstrue them to fit their views (Creationism, Abortion, Change the constitution to fit the word of the living god etc) and force them on everyone else.
Is it clear to see where I'm coming from on this? Again, I don't want this to be misinterpreted. All I'm saying is that religion should not be used to judge morality.
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
I have actually lived my life with this view on the bible which i got from an interview with King Diamond that i read back when i was in High School. It made a huge impact on my younger, more impressionable mind. King Diamond was asked about his satanic views and so on and so forth and it got on the subject of the bible came up. King said that he believes that the bible is truely a great book and a fantastic foundation for good morals. It is great as a book of stories to portray good and bad moral judgement (note that "stories" doesn't always mean fabrications, so please don't take that as someone saying "the bible is made up"... no one is saying that) and the consequences of such actions. The problem is not the bible, it's people intepreting it in self serving ways and using it as a weapon to damn certain groups. I fully agree and support this. I think a christian background is fine so long as it doesn't bleed into how they handle political situations (gay rights including same-sex marriage, abortion, the war, etc.)
I think i stated it above and if i did i'll restate it, if not then i won't. Bill Clinton was apparently a christian who attended church and so on and so forth, but it was never really an issue in his campaign or anything like that. The reason that Bush gets the bad rap for his religion is because he once said that he asked God for guidance and God spoke to him and gave him an answer. To me, that's scary because you can justify ANYTHING that way. Look at the cruisades, shit going on in the middle east, and so many horrible atrocities that have been done throughout history that were done in the name of God or religion. I don't want a leader who is going to make decisions based on how a good christian should live.
About health care: I don't mean to say that i agree with Hillary's plan because from what i have seen, it's not the best. But it's something and a step that i think we as a nation need to strongly consider. It's not a communist thing as some people would suggest. It should be everyone's basic human right to have the chance to be healthy.
And I can't say that I agree with anyone's politics 100%. I think there will be good and bad with any one of the candidates, but i just find some more agreeable than others. Really, I'd like to see John Edwards become president... oh well.
Edit: by the way, so far so good guys... let's keep it on this track. This is a fun discussion
I think i stated it above and if i did i'll restate it, if not then i won't. Bill Clinton was apparently a christian who attended church and so on and so forth, but it was never really an issue in his campaign or anything like that. The reason that Bush gets the bad rap for his religion is because he once said that he asked God for guidance and God spoke to him and gave him an answer. To me, that's scary because you can justify ANYTHING that way. Look at the cruisades, shit going on in the middle east, and so many horrible atrocities that have been done throughout history that were done in the name of God or religion. I don't want a leader who is going to make decisions based on how a good christian should live.
About health care: I don't mean to say that i agree with Hillary's plan because from what i have seen, it's not the best. But it's something and a step that i think we as a nation need to strongly consider. It's not a communist thing as some people would suggest. It should be everyone's basic human right to have the chance to be healthy.
And I can't say that I agree with anyone's politics 100%. I think there will be good and bad with any one of the candidates, but i just find some more agreeable than others. Really, I'd like to see John Edwards become president... oh well.
Edit: by the way, so far so good guys... let's keep it on this track. This is a fun discussion
DoomsdayZach
The Professor was right
that was pretty damn funny
The link you provided had quotes from the bible in it... No thanks.
Tbh I don't care who wins as long as they're not some religious fanatic
Trust me man, I agree 100%. I meant to tell everyone to disregard the religious rhetoric in there because that was purely the authors own $.02. However, the rest of the article is extremely straight forward about the Federal Reserve, the Council on Foreign Relations, etc. Just try to bypass the religious content and the article does a pretty good job of explaining our country's monetary system.
Just in case anyone has just joined this discussion, please disregard the first few posts by me. They were transferred from another thread and may set the wrong tone for the discussion.
In any case, here's the link again to the article I would ask everyone here to read. http://www.rense.com/general61/bbil.shtm Again, if you're not religious, just disregard the author's rhetoric. The actual content of the article is still a very good explanation of what's going on in America.
I won't be available tomorrow, but I'll look forward to seeing anyone's replies after reading this article. Let me just say this... If you read it and can honestly say to yourself that it is POSSIBLE, I have a lot more information I can share with you that will hopefully make you a believer. I'm relatively new to this information (about 8 months) and I couldn't believe it at first either, but once you read these articles you'll begin to look at the world in a totally different way. Unfortunately, it's not a good way.
Have a good one guys! Talk to you Friday.
I agree 100%. Unfortunately many people believe that you HAVE TO have religion in your life to be a moral person. I have always taken high offense to this being that I'm an athiest.
The President is a puppet of those who actually control America. Nobody gets elected President without their approval. I'm talking about the international bankers who control the monetary system of just about every country on Earth. These are the people who control our Federal Reserve, the most corrupt and most powerful institution on the planet. If you want to see the evidence of this, GOOGLE "America: Freedom to Fascism" and watch it. It's just an introduction, but it's a solid introduction.
The wealthy elites of the world are the same people who own all of the mainstream media outlets. This is why you can't trust anything you hear from any of the major news sources. They are filtered to lead you to a predetermined conclusion about what they are reporting on. And they also flat out lie to us. But the most egregious act on their part is completely ignoring the truth behind many significant events. For example, America is not sanctioning Iran for any nuclear weapons program. That's the cover. If you want to know the real reason we'll soon be at war with Iran, here it is: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
This article will also give you a true sense of just how perilous our economic situation is in America. If this goes through, Bush will have no choice but to blow Iran to pieces to stop it. Because if he doesn't America's economy will collapse as the other exchanges abandon the US dollar. EVERYONE HAS TO BE AWARE OF THIS!!!
Anyway, that's a lot to digest for now, so I'll end it there.
ABQShredHead
©1970
I don't know that I agree with that. Conceptually, perhaps, but in reality I think the natural trend is more along the lines of self servitude and self awareness. That's what I typically find in people, anyway. It's the special few you run into that actually put the concerns of humanity or others at the forefront of their lives.
IMcCain may get my vote as well. He seems to be the most competent and intelligent of the bunch. My biggest problem with him is that he supports the war though. You can't win them all.
I'll offer this on the subject of McCain...
If he is elected you can be certain we'll be at war with Iran (assuming it isn't already happening before he got in). We'll still be in Iraq, Afghanistan, and they'll be planning wars with Syria and a couple of other countries. And NONE of it will have anything to do with terrorism. But that's irrelevant anyway. Here's the real problem...
Aside from the untold thousands of innocent Iraqi deaths, our government has borrowed every last penny we've spent on Iraq so far. Most of it has come from China who is now the 2nd largest creditor to the United States (behind only the Federal Reserve). Our economy is already on the verge of collapse, and a war with Iran will only increase the amount of borrowing we will do to fund it. We're already at $9 Trillion with another $55 Trillion to be paid for Social Security and other entitlements over the next 5 years. The USA simply does not have the money to pay for these things. And once the rest of the world realizes that we will NEVER pay back these debts (because we can't collect enough in taxes to pay them off), they will cut off the money. When this happens, we're done. America as we all know it will cease to exist. We'll have no money to provide anything to anyone. All of those people who are relying on Social Security to live will starve to death. We'll have another depression that will dwarf the one in the 1930's (which was caused by the Federal Reserve's money supply reduction during the time it was needed most).
So the bottom line is that if McCain gets elected, America WILL GO BROKE! But not to worry, because he doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell of getting elected this time. Just look at the turnout of Democrats in the primaries, the money the Dem candidates are raising, etc. But the problem is, if either Obama or Clinton get elected, we're STILL going broke. They are promising MORE entitlements when they can't afford the ones they've already promised. And if any of you think that either one of them is going to end the Iraq war, I'm sorry to say that they have both clearly stated that they "would have to analyze the current situation to see if a redeployment is possible." Go back and watch any debate if you don't believe this. They have no intention of ending the war. The Democrats in Congress could have done it already, but they didn't. All they had to do was stop funding the war and it was over. But they don't want that mess on THEIR hands. They want the Republicans to take the full brunt of the disaster that is going on over there.
Anyway, before anyone decides to vote for any of the top 3 candidates, just be sure you understand how we are financially doomed with any 1 of them. Of course, in order to believe this you have to understand how close America is to bankruptcy. That's the key, and it's the 1 thing that none of those 3 will admit to. Hell, they won't even admit we're in a recession, and all 3 of them voted for Bush's economic stimulus plan even though most average Americans can see it's never going to work.
The biggest problem with UHC is that nobody has a right to it. And the last thing any of us should want is a government controlled program that we need. Any time you get the government involved it makes things 10 times worse, 10 times less efficient, and 10 times more expensive.
The problem with our health care system today is that the government has already screwed with it too much. They were the ones behind the HMOs that are so prevalent today, and nobody likes. They also put all kinds of restrictions unwarranted, mind you) on the health industry by not allowing people to buy insurance across state lines, not being able to negotiate for better prices on drugs from Canada, etc. The point is that the government has caused the problems we're seeing today. Because they messed around in something they have no business being involved in. Just like everything else they touch.
Just a tidbit... For every $1 that the Federal Government pays out as an entitlement (of any type, welfare, Social Security, etc.) they have to collect $7 to do it. Yes, that's right. They take $7 from us to then distribute $1 to someone else. #1, it's forceably taking from someone and giving it to another simply because the 1 person makes more money (everyone should have a problem with this), but then you also have the incredible waste associated with just funneling it through the government machine.
Wouldn't the homeless shelter in your town be much better served by you giving them $7 directly as opposed to then getting only $1 after the gov. takes $7 from you? Think about it. And that is how our system was set up to work. The government isn't supposed to take care of anyone. Their job is to protect your rights by following the Constitution. And leave the charity at a local level where it's much more efficient, but also visible to those who ar giving. You have no idea where your money is being spent when its stolen from you by the gov. But when you give it directly to a charity you know, and can see, it helping those who you gave to.
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