2008 Political debate thread

[ABQShredHead]

We won't go broke. I don't know what that is, but that's not true. And if anybody calls in our notes, we should just take them by force. Then we can have all their money, and pay ourselves.

[/tongue in cheek]

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Has anyone seen the movie Zeitgeist? That'll open some eyes.

 

[noble savage]

I don't know that I agree with that. Conceptually, perhaps, but in reality I think the natural trend is more along the lines of self servitude and self awareness. That's what I typically find in people, anyway. It's the special few you run into that actually put the concerns of humanity or others at the forefront of their lives.

Actually, I do think you're right. On a select individual basis, I can see this as absolutely true. I have witnessed those attributes in many people first hand. Regardless of religion. What I was trying to say is, religion should not be the end all deciding factor for morality. I would consider myself a moral person. I really do go out of my way to help people. Thinking about all of the poor and helpless people on Earth keeps me up at night. I found out a few months ago that my grandpa had a heart attack so I immediately jumped on a plane and stayed with him for just under two months.

I did this because I really care for him, not because a religion told me to do it, I'm an Atheist. I have to admit that when religious people claim they have the only basis for morality and that other people, like myself, are degenerates, wastes of life who have lots of sex, kill, lie and steal because they have not read how to be good in a book, it infuriates more than anything I can think of. A majority of America actually thinks this.

 

[Meedleyx10]

Has anyone seen the movie Zeitgeist? That'll open some eyes.

*facepalm*

 

[DoomsdayZach]

I agree 100%. Unfortunately many people believe that you HAVE TO have religion in your life to be a moral person. I have always taken high offense to this being that I'm an athiest.

Absolutely 100% agreed.

I don't know that I agree with that. Conceptually, perhaps, but in reality I think the natural trend is more along the lines of self servitude and self awareness. That's what I typically find in people, anyway. It's the special few you run into that actually put the concerns of humanity or others at the forefront of their lives.

I think human nature generally does have good intentions, but the density of the population makes people apathetic (not outright malicious) because they don't want to be inconvinienced when "someone else can take care of that". So i both agree and disagree... i think people *are* good, but in the society we live in they don't have to exercise that good.

I think the "bad" people are far and away the vast minority.

The biggest problem with UHC is that nobody has a right to it. And the last thing any of us should want is a government controlled program that we need. Any time you get the government involved it makes things 10 times worse, 10 times less efficient, and 10 times more expensive. [this post continues but i don't want to have a huge ass quote]

This is why I don't know that Hillary's plan would work, but on a simply ideological level I totally disagree that nobody has a right to UHC. This is simply opinion based, but as i said before i think everyone has the right to these resources out there to make them live healthy lives. Should it be government run and funded? Well, i can't think of any other way for it to work, but no.
There are just flat out no easy answers to any of these issues. No matter who gets elected, I think things will get better before they get worse. Really, what the country needs is a different set up rather than this two party bullshit.

 

[scanner313]

We won't go broke. I don't know what that is, but that's not true. And if anybody calls in our notes, we should just take them by force. Then we can have all their money, and pay ourselves.

[/tongue in cheek]

How can you claim that America won't go broke? $9 TRILLION in debt isn't enough? $55 TRILLION more coming due in the next 5 to 10 years and no funds to pay for it?

The Roman Empire went broke. The Soviet Union went broke. American CAN, and most certainly WILL, go broke if we don't change our banking system and abolish the Federal Reserve very soon. It may already be too late.

If you want to understand why, I highly suggest watching the film "The Money Masters". It's free on Google/YouTube. It's a hisotry lesson like you will NEVER get in a public school.

 

[scanner313]

Has anyone seen the movie Zeitgeist? That'll open some eyes.

Zeitgeist, America: Freedom to Fascism, The Money Masters, Endgame...

There are a number of films out there that are waking people up to the truth every day. Just watch any one of them and you'll understand how we've been lied to and completely screwed by our own government.

 

[EyeballKid]

Swabs, that's hilarious!

I'll only say this: there is not a single potential candidate that does not freak me out in some regard.

/end

 

[DoomsdayZach]

Also, about movies like Zeitgeist or whatever, it's all propaganda. You may agree or disagree with the point, but no matter what it's underhanded ways of exploiting data to prove your side. With most data sets, either side can spin it to their advantage, and people who make films like this utilize this knowledge.

 

[scanner313]

...but on a simply ideological level I totally disagree that nobody has a right to UHC. This is simply opinion based.

Ideologically, sure we want to believe that we're all entitled to health care. But that's because we've all been conditioned to believe that our government is supposed to be taking care of us all. FDR started it with Social Security and Medicare. It's gotten much worse since then and we're all paying for those mistakes. But purely Constitutionally, none of us has a RIGHT to UHC. The government was never intended to be our nanny, but that's what they've turned into. But the real danger is that a government that is big enough to provide you with everything you need to live is also powerful enough to take it all away from you. This is the reason that nobody should ever let themselves become dependent on the govenrment. You're giving control of your life to a bunch of politicians. If they let you keep all of your money, you could provide almost everything you need for yourself. Then they could focus on the 1 thing they are supposed to do. That is, protect America from foreign invasion and protect your rights. Take away all of the other power they've stolen from the States and individuals and corruption goes away. Without power to give to someone, there is no possibility of corruption.

There are just flat out no easy answers to any of these issues.

Agreed, but adding more government influence certainly isn't going to make them better.

No matter who gets elected, I think things will get better before they get worse.

I can't agree with you on this one Zach. I see the complete opposite scenario.

Really, what the country needs is a different set up rather than this two party bullshit.

Half agreed. What this country needs is a NO PARTY SYSTEM. People need to evaluate candidates on their own merits, and stop trusting that just because they are a member of the same party that they are trustworthy. That's the problem with America... People still trust government even though they constantly bitch about it. They need to wake up and realize that we'd be much better off taking care of ourselves than having the government do it.

 

[scanner313]

Also, about movies like Zeitgeist or whatever, it's all propaganda. You may agree or disagree with the point, but no matter what it's underhanded ways of exploiting data to prove your side. With most data sets, either side can spin it to their advantage, and people who make films like this utilize this knowledge.

I have to disgree Zach. What you're getting from the government and the MSM is propoganda. There absolutely is a secret government operating behind the scenes of our "elected officials". It's all about the money. Those with it have absolute control over those who don't.

don't dismiss these films as nonsense. If you do some investigating into what they say you will eventually come to accept it. It's the only logical explanation for MOST of what goes on in this world.

 

[Swabs]

Ideologically, sure we want to believe that we're all entitled to health care. But that's because we've all been conditioned to believe that our government is supposed to be taking care of us all. FDR started it with Social Security and Medicare. It's gotten much worse since then and we're all paying for those mistakes. But purely Constitutionally, none of us has a RIGHT to UHC. The government was never intended to be our nanny, but that's what they've turned into. But the real danger is that a government that is big enough to provide you with everything you need to live is also powerful enough to take it all away from you. This is the reason that nobody should ever let themselves become dependent on the govenrment. You're giving control of your life to a bunch of politicians. If they let you keep all of your money, you could provide almost everything you need for yourself. Then they could focus on the 1 thing they are supposed to do. That is, protect America from foreign invasion and protect your rights. Take away all of the other power they've stolen from the States and individuals and corruption goes away. Without power to give to someone, there is no possibility of corruption.

Sorry but that's pretty bullshit, the Governments job is to run the country and protect the welfare of it's people. I live in the UK and the NHS is a fucking godsend for many people. Sure it has it's flaws, but it means that people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford treatment, aren't dying needlessly.

Not to mention your logic is fatally flawed. So if the US got a national health service then the people would be "putting their health in the governments hands"? HAH how did you come to that conclusion? The government don't gain any "control" by offering a service to their people that didn't even exist previously.

 

[noble savage]

At Scanner:

The biggest problem I see with those type of films is that you can research them yourself, but only by finding information that may or may not be false. You can give me a link to any site that supports your claim, but it doesn't make it factually accurate. The same goes regular media as well.

Anyone can take a hypothesis and then proceed to nit pick through other information and build a case supporting said hypothesis. You can claim that there is a shadow government. This may be true, I don't know. But what is true is that I have no way of knowing whether the information is correct or not. Everyone with a little common sense knows that the media is BS, but because that's the case it doesn't make the argument from the other viewpoint anymore valid.

I think it's fair for me to say that I have to see drastic claims like that with my own eyes. I'm not paranoid or anything, but I just don't trust what anyone says.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

I have to disgree Zach. What you're getting from the government and the MSM is propoganda. There absolutely is a secret government operating behind the scenes of our "elected officials". It's all about the money. Those with it have absolute control over those who don't.

don't dismiss these films as nonsense. If you do some investigating into what they say you will eventually come to accept it. It's the only logical explanation for MOST of what goes on in this world.

I'm not dismissing them as nonsense, i'm just saying that as with everything, they're propoganda and you have to take the "facts" with a grain of salt. People have an agenda and will play dirty to make theirs look like the right one.

 

[Progged]

Why hasn't anybody brought up "Global Warming" yet? This is the movement that is scaring the crap out of me...

 

[noble savage]

Why hasn't anybody brought up "Global Warming" yet? This is the movement that is scaring the crap out of me...

If it's as bad as they say it is, than it's not worth worrying about because there is nothing we can do. We'll all be dead in less than 100 years. However, the media may have jumped on this issue and ran with it, thus blowing it out of proportion. A manufactured scam, so to speak.

 

[Burnout]

If it's as bad as they say it is, than it's not worth worrying about because there is nothing we can do. We'll all be dead in less than 100 years. However, the media may have jumped on this issue and ran with it, thus blowing it out of proportion. A manufactured scam, so to speak.

It's not completely incorrect but the Al Gore meme is not exactly unbiased.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Why hasn't anybody brought up "Global Warming" yet? This is the movement that is scaring the crap out of me...

The head of my chemistry department believes it is a natural process, and he showed us data from over the years to prove this. He believes the temperature of the earth has risen and fallen throughout its existence, and CO2 levels have nothing to do with it. He said if we all went out and burned a tree down right now, it would not affect the planet's temperature one bit.

 

[razoredge]

nobody gets it

we need to have more children
we need to spend more on space projects
we need to spend more on war
we need to burn more oil
we need to clear more forests
we need to develope more of the world
we need to keep the genetically deficient alive longer
so they can have more children
so we can clear more forests and develope more of the planet
so we can burn more oil
so we can fund more space programs
and manufacture more wars

so theres only one answer... do as the bible says and go forth and multiply, working very well for some blood lines....

tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc

 

[ABQShredHead]

Why hasn't anybody brought up "Global Warming" yet? This is the movement that is scaring the crap out of me...

Because it's the biggest slop of fiction out today, supported and promulgated by the media. And Al Gore's involved. 'nuff said.

You have a cool avatar though. And I was just in Tucson at the Hilton Conquistador. Great place, but they really need to improve their beer selection.